On 27th February 2002 the state sponsored Gujarat (India) pogrom began
and which ultimately claimed lives of more than 2000 Indian citizens (mostly
innocent Muslims, women and children unspared). Incidentally, Narendra MODI,
India’s current Prime Minister and then Chief Minister of Gujarat was denied a
visa in the United States (2005-2014) and Europe (2002-2013) for his alleged
involvement in this pogrom.
Is Juhapura in Ahmedabad (Gujarat, India) the Gaza of India? Could the
2002 Gujarat pogrom be compared to the one in Rwanda (1994)? Is Kashmir the
West Bank (Cisjordanie) of India? What is the nature of the nexus between
Narendra MODI and Benjamin NETANYAHU?
Charlotte THOMAS
lucidly answers these and other important questions while we discuss her
remarkable book, "Pogrom and Ghetto: Muslims in contemporary India".
Regarding the 2002 Gujarat pogrom, Charlotte highlights the
instrumentalisation by the political elite of the marginalized Hindus, in
particular the outcast, tribal population in perpetrating horrendous violence
against the "other / counterpart" marginalized religious group
(Muslims), through corrupt and arbitrary methods of public services
dispensation. She argues that an impartial & effective welfare state,
guaranteeing quality public services for all would have dented the appeal to
and participation in the act of barbaric violence against Muslims.
Charlotte further affirms that the ghettoization of Juhapura is also a
deliberate act of continuation of the economic exploitation of Muslims, while
denying them their fair dues as citizens of India. Incidentally, the only (omnipresent)
public service in Juhapura is of law and order (police & justice). It is to
be noted here that the Muslims of Juhapura do pay government taxes like other
Indians, however; they are denied basic public services such as schools,
hospitals, water, sanitation, etc.
Thanks to her research and prolonged stays in Juhapura, Charlotte THOMAS
concludes that Juhapura is both a symbol of domination and resistance. The
newfound act of resistance in Juhapura is partly also explained through the
arrival, post 2002 pogrom of the educated, economically and socially dynamic
class of Muslims.
So, presenting to you here a commendable work of courage and academic
excellence!
Note:
1) Simultaneous subtitles are provided in two (English and Hindi)
languages.
Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfMB4bYugXU
2) This interview could be read in the form of an article in the
following languages: English, French,
Italian, Marathi, Hindi, Bengali and Kannada.
Anubandh: Hello! My
name is Anubandh KATÉ and I am an engineer based in Paris. Today, I am
immensely pleased to welcome Charlotte THOMAS.
Welcome Charlotte!
Charlotte: Hello!
Anubandh: Today we are
going to discuss about her book, which is titled, "Pogrom and
Ghetto", that mainly tells us the story of the slum, the ghetto of
Juhapura, in the city of Ahmedabad, in the state of Gujarat in India. This book
is the result of her doctoral thesis work.
However, Charlotte, first, I would like to introduce you. So, your
studies first. You did a master's degree in SciencePo Toulouse in international
relations, on the topics of conflict, risk and security. Then, between
2006-2009… Was it at SciencePo Paris ?
Charlotte: Yes, so
actually, by then, I am already at Sciences Po Toulouse. And as I was born in
1983, I completed my studies before the reform of 358. Therefore, in fact, I completed
a final-year diploma at Sciences Po, which was geared towards international
relations, but also on the sociology of the state. Therefore, it was not a
master's degree. It was a 4th year diploma, within which I wrote my
first thesis. And I think perhaps that is what caught your attention. It is
relevant for us today because during this 1st thesis for my research
paper, I worked on Vinoba BHAVE who was a traveling companion of GANDHI. Moreover,
I was working on how by employing a religious rhetoric, Vinoba BHAVE was
exercising within a democratic framework and in a non-denominational way he
formulated a democratic modus operandi for the Indians. It is was just to
clarify that.
And we will come back to my book. However, it (Juhapura) is not a slum,
it is actually a ghetto. It is very different and that is precisely the subject
of our discussion. That is why it is interesting to say it. Then regarding
Sciences Po Paris. I was accepted into a master's program at Sciences Po Paris
in 2006. This time, indeed, I studied comparison of politically oriented
relationships. In fact, it existed back
then, again with an Asia option and for that matter, also including the United
States and the Middle East. It is within this framework that afterwards I started
my research on Juhapura. Thus, the neighborhood that we are talking about, the Muslim
quarter is located on the outskirts of Ahmedabad. And the city, it should be
noted, is the economic capital of the state of Gujarat, located in northwestern
India.
Anubandh: Exactly!
Thank you.
I will just add to that few more elements. So, between 2017-2021 at CERI
(Centre d'Études et de Recherches Internationales) you also held a PhD position. Nevertheless,
I still have to revisit one thing. Since you mentioned Vinoba BHAVE, I see
there is at least one link, or even two links related to our discussion. Because
in the book you also talk about GANDHI's Ashram at Sabarmati in Ahmedabad. On
my part, I was born in India in the city where Gandhi had his second Ashram
(Sevagram), in Wardha (Maharashtra). And in the same city, there is the Ashram of
Vinobha BHAVE at Pawnar (Maharashtra).
Now, let us talk about your professional experiences. Between 2007-2009,
you had a stint at the "Courrier International" as a journalist.
Charlotte: It was
actually interspersed with my studies during my master's degree. Because if the
audience were attentive, the dates also correspond to my evaluation regarding
the master's degree. Actually, I worked at “Courrier International” where I was
the "South Asia section head" as a replacement of Ingrid THERWATH
during my master's degree.
Anubandh: And for our
Indian listeners, a word about "Courrier International". It is a very
interesting newspaper, which publishes articles about different countries. Originally,
these articles are published in various languages and these are then translated
in French by "Courrier International".
To continue, then you also worked at Sciences Po Lille between
2014-2015. Then, at Sciences Po Le Havre, you taught courses…
Charlotte: In fact,
each time, I teach classes there. I was not an employee of SciencePo Paris, neither
of SciencePo Lille. I was just giving lessons in an ad hoc manner.
Anubandh: Very well.
So now, we are going to begin to talk about your book.
First, I would like you to explain to us how did the idea regarding this
book came into being? Why did you choose this theme? How did it go?
Charlotte: So, in fact,
archaeology as… because I follow Foucault's archaeology, the theoretical
framework that I use in my thesis refers to Michel FOUCAULT. Thus, I am going
to call the term "Foucauldian archaeology". All of this goes back a
very long time because… So, I had made my choice… First, to explain to the
audience, the book which we are talking about, "Pogrom and Ghetto: Muslims
in contemporary India”, is a book which is taken from my thesis. Therefore, I
did not choose to write the book. The book came after the thesis. I will come
back to that, but writing a book, it is like rewriting one’s thesis. Furthermore, in this book, I excluded the
entire theoretical framework that I had created, that I had demonstrated in my
thesis. For reasons of anonymization and protection, especially in the given
political context in which we are talking about, so as to protect my interviewees,
as they are called, I also deleted a whole section of my ethnography, that is
to say, really... to give very precise information about the places and people I
am talking about.
Now, back to archaeology from my research. Actually, I am interested in
India for real since I was 15, to put it rather quickly. In addition, what interested
me when I was very, very young. So, I come from Normandy (France). I grew up in
a village of 543 inhabitants with parents who were not interested at all,
neither in anything international nor by foreigners, for that matter. Thus, it
was not at all within my spectrum. Nevertheless, I do not know, life does
strange things to us. And my grandmother had subscribed to Geo (magazine). To
tell you all the truth! This Geography magazine actually talks about foreign
countries. In fact, from my little window, from the very bottom of the valley… I
happened to have a window open on the rest of the world. And then, what has
interested me since I was 15 years old, in this case, that is really the
relationship between religion and politics.
Because, well, I am… I am French. I am socialized within a framework of
(French) secularism (Laïcité). Here, the state has a benevolent attitude
towards all the religions but it recognizes none as the religion of the state. Well,
all things considered, but no religion is present, I mean massively in public
spaces. And for that matter, not much either in private spaces but especially
in public spaces and so on. In fact, I just stumbled upon India like that. On
top of that, it was India from another era. It was still a secular India. By
the way, I have many negative views about the Congress party but (India was)
still led at that time by the Congress party. There was a brief BJP stint between
1999-2004 but which was much less radical than… Excuse me, but which was much
less radical than that of today. Thus, it was really how I was discovering a
little bit of India.
Therefore, I started to become interested in secularism. I also encountered
social sciences in high school. I discovered sociology which was really, I
think, the intellectual encounter of my life, and which will moreover,
influence my political views. I think that when you do political sociology, afterwards
we have a difficulty believing objectively what is called
"meritocracy". Since we realize that it does not exist in reality. I
mean, in practice. In short, I was interested a little bit in all that. Then, what
interested me was how religious groups live there. That is how we are made to
be, how we manage to live our religion in India while being very democratic. So,
well, I mean in a framework that is republican and democratic. Therefore, my
first step was the research paper that I was talking about by Vinoba BHAVE. Because
what interested me about Vinoba was that he was someone who claimed his Hindu
culture and his Hindu religion which had a whole register, a vocabulary
extremely influenced by the Hindu religious terms and which, however proposed,
as I was saying earlier, a political thought that is democratic. He made use of
this approach. He used this Hindu religious vocabulary to bring people to a
democratic and republican political practice. Thus, at some point, I just went
along with it, bit by bit.
I am saying all this since we are here to tell the story about my Indian
connection. At a certain point, for example, I wondered if I wanted to work on
the (Indian) Communist Party, finally the CPI (« Communist Party of India)
parties. Since my question was still relevant there. How do you articulate
religion and politics in another (different than in France) institutional
context, in an ideological sense, which is that of secularism that you really
should not translate as “Laïcité” (French secularism). It is one of my
pet arguments. Sometimes, I struggle to make understand people because they are
often in a hurry. However, the (Indian) secularism is not the same as the
(French) “Laïcité”. It is absolutely not! Because, the French state does
not recognize any religion unlike the Indian state. The Indian state, until a
few days ago, because right now it is actually much deteriorated. However
(constitutionally) the Indian state allows religious groups, people to have
their own personal laws on marriage, inheritance, and family.
In short, the PC (Communist Party), and then, well, it is something
which seemed a little unclear to me.
Anyway, and then we are in the 2000s. There you have it, I took my first
trip to India. Finally, it was within the framework of my studies at Sciences
Po in 2004. Thus, I am back in 2005. I was writing this research paper on
Vinoba BHAVE and then I moved forward. And therefore around 2006, there is this
perspective on the communist parties. And then there are Christians… But it
turns out that I was raised… So, I have a Catholic upbringing. I was raised in
a private (catholic) schooling and in private institutions. I have had my
sacraments and so on. I have a very critical perspective on the church as an
institution. But well... I know the
Catholic community a little. Thus, I thought to myself… I tell people all this
because it is also about how we produce knowledge and these avenues of
research. I thought to myself, those Muslims who, nevertheless incidentally,
the second ethno-religious group present in India, after the Hindus. That is
why India is the third Muslim country in the world after Indonesia and
Pakistan. I thought to myself, "Ah, well the Muslims!". And at that
time in fact, in 2006, you type Muslims in India, you immediately stumble upon
all sorts of articles. I mean that there were several articles per week on 2002
anti-Muslims pogrom that had taken place in the state of Gujarat, under the
government of Narendra MODI, the current prime minister of India and who was a Chief Minister of the state of
Gujarat between 2001 and 2014. Therefore, I thought to myself, this is
something that interests me! Then,
because my question was not so much... After I would dug in and everything, it
was not the same question anymore...
Now we are going in the crux of the matter regarding my PhD thesis and
the book. Nevertheless, my question was... It was not specifically related to
the pogrom, as I knew that there had been excellent academic publications
already on that. I mean, those are firsthand
accounts that are very essential. For instance, I can think of Harsh MANDAR,
Teesta SETALVAD and… I am forgetting some names because there were really a lot
of them. Thankfully, these activists, these social workers were there at that
time to document, exactly when the pogrom was unfolding. I also remember Cédric
PRAKASH. Finally, many people were very important. Consequently, they have
documented profusely about the violence then. So, the “toll of this violence”, it
can be found in reports such as that of « Human Rights Watch ». “We have no
orders to save you”. This one is by the "Human Rights Watch". Nevertheless,
my question was; once, as an Indian citizen of the Muslim faith… And where the
practice of one’s faith is a constitutional right… I remind you that India, even
today, is a secular democracy, which does not recognize, which therefore
forbids discrimination based on a religious principle… Once your government has
done that to you… because the strong complicity of the authorities is largely
proven today. I would like to remind you that Narendra MODI was denied a visa in
the United States (2005-2014) and Europe (2002-2013) until 2013 for his alleged
involvement in this pogrom and that of his local state ministers.
Finally, when I say "state", I mean local (Gujarat) state... In
fact, once your government (State) has done
that to you, my question was; how do you become a citizen (once again)? Thus,
how does it actually work? What about you?
What is your role and fate? I am talking here about the Muslims, about Indians of
Muslim faith. What is your relationship with the authorities? How do you still
conceive your relationship to your state? The State that not only failed to
protect you, but also worked actively to make you suffer! Then conversely, once
the authorities have done all that… What was their goal?
Because, and we will revisit this, I think maybe when we talk in detail
of my work. Also why I am talking about pogrom, there is a real reason, why am
I also talking about ghettos today, there is a real reason behind. So, once the
authorities did this to you, who inflicted this degree of violence on you, how
do they let you be a citizen? There you have it! That is the starting point of
my research archaeology.
Anubandh: Understood.
Thank you very much. We will move forward.
What I really loved about your book… For me, there are at least two
major aspects. First, I really enjoyed the academic rigor. The bibliography is
very extensive. There are many references in English, for books in English and
in French. There are news reports and articles.
Secondly, it is really your field notes and interviews. There are loads
of them. That is the time when you lived there. Three families welcomed you. That
is what you wrote in the book. This allowed you to become the "Pakka
Juhapura wali", a true girl from Juhapura. That is great.
However, even if things are perhaps easy and self-evident to guess, I
would still like that you explain one thing to us. For some references, you wrote,
"The reference is no longer available". Why?
Charlotte: Oh well… I
do not have at all an answer this question!
The first thing I should also clarify, indeed, you mentioned… Just to explain, you see how to do fieldwork
and all that… When you write a thesis, you read a lot of sources and bibliography.
There are many resources in English, thanks to the colonial link and colonial
ties. Many of the researcher papers are in English. There are many primary
sources. What are called primary sources? For example, it is how I study Muslim
or Islamic organizations that is to say, religious aspects. Then, for me, what
we call primary source, that is what I studied. I read their brochures,
publications and all… That includes the NGO reports and all that stuff. These
are primary sources. Therefore, that is really “raw data”, in quotes. This is
on the one hand and on the other hand for brochures. In fact, it is important
for researchers to read this to understand, how people think. In fact, how do
the people we study, the actors we are studying are thinking.
A word also about the families for whom, really and it is not for the
pose or posturing. However, my gratitude is boundless towards these people who
have welcomed me. With whom I did not always agree. With whom it did not go at all
smoothly all the time… Well, I do not
really like it, the term "Western," because, I think that is a bit of
an oversimplification. However, I mean, for a French woman to come and to live
in total immersion in an upper class but poor, from an economic standpoint Muslim
family. I was not staying in a luxurious room with "maids" around and
so on. I was sleeping with 10 people in my… I mean, in the common living room
and so forth. I was participating to daily chores, which was quite a struggle,
by the way. Because in order to have "the right to participate" in
the chores, I needed to be recognized precisely as a "Juhapurawali"
and no longer like a guest. And I was there, "but I am not a guest! I am a
member of the family!" That was very important to me. That is the most… This
is the most incredible experience of my life that I have lived.
This experience, because I also think it is a good capacity to adapt but
to put you like that in an environment so different from your own and to have
the possibility to discover everything,
knowing that, as I am a woman, I
was… people had trouble putting me into
categories. Thus, I had access to male social circles. That is really a lot… It
was strange for them because I was entitled to the conversations… since I was
not recognized… well, they could not quite judge me. Also all that goes in the
background… all women's conversations, everything that happens when… so, it is
a cliché, but everything that happens when we cook, for example. Everything we
tell each other and everything around… Indeed, all of that was very, very rich
and truly incredible.
I have not forgotten your question but I think all of this is worth
saying. Because that is what makes your “material”. Moreover, that does not
mean that, I tell people that too. That it does not mean, "we take it for gospel
truth". We often repeat a phrase to ourselves. When you are a researcher,
you always take the interviewee's words seriously but never for a gospel truth.
That is to say, because each respondent has his/her own reality. That is
perfectly normal. While we have to be there to try a little bit to produce a
general view of all these polyphonic realities.
To answer your question, a word about the source. Therefore, what
concerns me… Well, afterwards, I really got used to being severely abused on
the social media by the "Hindutva trolls". I can clearly distinguish
between the “Hindus” who are the supporters of the political Hinduism and the
rest of the Hindus. I will put it in anyway, the hypothesis that why many
sources disappeared. That is because they call into question the ruling
dissension. Really, I think that… It is my explanation. And it has been
substantiated. By the way, they swept
all of that under the carpet. We know that very similar events were reproduced
in 2019 in New Delhi during the riots… For me, these are not riots. These are
attacks…these are anti-Muslim attacks. In addition, all of this is now very
commonplace. Today, attacking Muslims (in India) is not a big thing… It even
does not make a problem to the entire international system.
Anubandh: Yes. It is
acknowledged and accepted. Let us say that there are many people who agree to this
and then there are people who disagree. However, let us move on.
What I propose, before going into further details, let us present a little bit the geography of the city of Ahmedabad. Therefore, I took this map from your book. And here, I would like you to identify to us, the landmarks in the city. Above all, there are three things you mentioned in the book; the Western City, the old town district and the Industrial belt. Moreover, of course, there is Juhapura.
Charlotte: Well, thank
you. It is always important to recognize
it. Because, for me, the difference here. That is why I am very, very opposed
to (academic) cannibalization. Since there is room for everyone. So, first of
all, thank you! Even though they probably will not watch this interview and so
on. Nevertheless, thanks to the cartographer in 2014 who made this map. Because, I did not make it. It is the cartography department of Sciences
Po who made it. They did it for free, to help me. Thus, I mention them here as
well because it is very important to keep in mind that all these people, they
are essential resources for researchers and that it would be good if we
protected them and that we continue to invest in them!
Therefore, I will come back to this map. Indeed, you see here… I do not
know to what extent I can show it to you, because the old town, basically it is
really the circle of the center in which is written “Ahmadabad”. However, on the right side… Well, I am
really, really bad at Geography. I mean,
at least at spatial awareness. Therefore, on the eastern side of the Sabarmati,
it is the great river that flows through. And unsurprisingly… In the circle
where it says “Ahmedabad”, on the eastern side, there, this is the old town. That
is basically it. The "Western City” is on the other side. And the bridge
here is the Ellis Bridge which I am referring to. The bridges have been built; they
have in fact allowed to develop all of this western part of the city. That part
is much wealthy because the old town, it is very Muslim dominated, very, very Muslim.
In addition, it is very, very well integrated. Because it is a fortified city.
It is very much integrated into what we call… These neighborhoods are called
"Pols", which were done in the manner of a lighter urban space that
has been extensively studied by architects.
Anyway, in short, it is all very, very beautiful. Today, the old town, it
is really falling into a bit of decrepitude, especially because it is Muslim. As it is primarily inhabited by Muslims. There
are very few… So, there is one preservation
project run by UNESCO and also one by the French… preservation of the old « heritage buildings ». Actually, not nearly as much that there could
have been… I can only imagine if it were Hindu. Because, in addition, the
authorities of Gujarat, they really prefer to go to Ahmedabad. Once again, Ahmedabad that is the economic
capital of Gujarat unlike the political capital Gandhinagar, which is a new
city. It is really all about making Ahmedabad as a showcase-type city. It is
about projecting it as a model of neoliberalism and of BJP's policy. Therefore,
they invest mainly in the "Western City", the one that we just
mentioned and the one that is located on the "Western Bank" of the
(Sabarmati) river. That is to say, in the development that is happening, facing
the river, in fact, along the Sabarmati. And then the area of the “Industrial
belt”, it is to the east of the city. In fact, it is further away from
Ahmedabad. Therefore, in this
"Industrial belt", which is on the east side of the Sabarmati but
which roughly surrounds Ahmedabad.
Actually, it is simple. We can imagine that originally Ahmedabad was the
city of Ahmed SHAH in 1415. The city
that was founded at that time by Ahmed SHAH. It is at first marginalized but
then it develops with industrialization. Because, Gujarat is a state that had
been put in the dynamics of globalization quite early, especially, towards
Africa. By the way, GANDHI, who was a Gujarati, went on to settle in Africa, as
there was a large maritime interface. Thus, Gujarat was a state that became
very dynamic, very quickly. In fact,
there have been many, who are called “mahājans”, or the guilds, shopkeepers. Therefore,
it has been a wealthy city from the beginning and afterwards, once the bridges
are built… And then there is also a demographic objective in developing the
“Western City”. Consequently, in the western part of the city there are these
"posh areas". Finally, the wealthy neighborhoods like "Thaltej
bangalos". There are plenty of them there in the Western City.
Anubandh: Yes,
absolutely. Well, you mentioned Ahmed SHAH and he was also the one who somewhere
had given the name of this city or…
Charlotte: It is not
"somewhere", it is him, yes, completely! This is the city of Ahmed
SHAH.
Anubandh: And in the
book, as you specify, what surprised or struck me, it is to learn that the
"Sultana" (kingdom) is not an Islamic state. Moreover, what you are specifying is that the
"Jizia", the tax that was imposed, it was also imposed on the
"Shia", because I think Ahmed SHAH was a "Sunni". And the
tax was imposed also on other sectarian groups internal to Islam, and then of
course, on Hindus. But it was also
imposed on Christians, Jews, Jains and
Hindus. Therefore, it is part of the whole scheme and it was not singularly the
Hindus. Thus, I think it is a bit…
Charlotte: Ah... but of
course! We can talk about that briefly. That is the case everywhere. I mean,
everywhere it is a colonial phenomenon. For example, if we are talking about
France, this is the case in Algeria, Morocco, and so on. Everywhere it is the colonial mindset that
makes people think. Because it is based on the principle of "divide and
rule". In other words, basically, the settlers (colonizers), whatever they
may be, they do not have the human capacity to administer. For instance,
imagine the British. Okay, admittedly it was the world's leading power at that
time. Finally, we can see the size of their island compared to the
subcontinent. Humanly speaking, it is not possible to manage this. Therefore,
what needs to be done? Divide and
conquer! Thus, we are going to put it
into people's heads… I am coming back to very precisely regarding what you
asked. However, with the separation of the electorates in 1905 and all. So,
basically, we put things into people's heads that if you are Muslim… whatever your
cult, your affiliation, whether you are Bahralvi, Deobandi, Chites, Ismailiyas…
we do not care about any of that.. For them (Britishers), Muslim is an entity like
Hindu is an entity. Whereas in Hinduism,
southern Hinduism is not at all the northern one. I mean, the festivals
celebrated there are not the same, the food… a whole bunch of things are
different. But the British conveniently oversimplified the representations of Muslims
and Hindus.
I will come back to the Middle Ages later. However, I would like to
bring your attention to the somewhat paradoxical side with regard to political
Hinduism, therefore "Hindutva". The political thought that is today hegemonic
in India and reshaping it… which is reshaping the Indian state to distance it
from secularism. I find it quite fascinating that a political thought that was
codified at the end of the 19th century and which often projects out
in the front... So, every time they boast of India's power and so forth, Hindus
who would have been like "oppressed" by the Muslim Sultans. However,
in fact, they repeat and apply exactly the political thought or frameworks of
the white colonizer. That is something… Finally, I am working right now and
everything, but it is still like a thought of a newfound emancipation and with a
longed-for sovereignty restored, I think it is a little bit hard to believe,
but anyway.
Thus, I am going back to what you were saying. Because you are making a
very vital point there. That is what all serious researchers and serious
academic work demonstrate. So, as I was saying, "Jizia"... Anyway, this tax, let us say which was imposed,
this form of taxation by Muslim rulers and not by "Islamic Muslim
Rulers,". The tax was imposed on
those groups that are not of their own. However, it is imposed also on other
sects of Islam, as long as it is not a form of Islam that is practiced by the
Sultan. And once we have identified that then it is something that is easy to
understand. It is a form of taxation. Indeed, it is discriminatory on an ethnic
or religious basis. We are in complete agreement on that. It is not in the republican
and democratic spirit. However, it is not criminalization of the other person's
religion. It is also important to remember in this regard that there have been
many marriages between, especially between Rajputs and Muslims. Finally, I
mean, all of this is really very petty, really. Moreover, the interpretation
that is offered today and which is not deconstructed solely by me, we could
also revisit "The myth of the holocaust", for example. So all of this
is intentionally exploited today for strictly electoral and political
interests.
Anubandh: Yes. You used
the word "paradox". There is another paradox that is important. It is
also worth emphasizing the caste system in India. Moreover, for most Indians, including
me, for a very long time I did not know that there were castes even among Muslims.
Therefore, I propose to share something with you…
Charlotte: And also
within the Christians!
Anubandh: Yes. We can
say that the “caste” is the disease of the Hindus. And that somewhere others
got infected from the Hindus.
Thus, I am going to present this slide quickly and then I will invite
you to respond.
Thus, among the Muslims in India, there are castes or the "Jamats", despite the fact that in theory, all Muslims are equal. There are, however, three types of castes; Ashraf, Ajlaf and Azral.
Thus, Ashraf, that is if we take the equivalence with the Hindus, then that would be the equivalent of "Brahmins". These are upper castes who have Persian and Arab origins. Their examples are: "KHAN, SHEIKH, PATHAN" and others.
Second is Ajlaf. Ajlaf, it is an intermediary caste. It could be the "OBC
– Other Backward Classes" for Hindus. They are the descendants of middle
castes Hindus who got converted to Islam.
Third and last is Azral who are the lower and outcaste groups, the
equivalent of the untouchables for the Hindus. Moreover, their profession is
often a base one such as sweepers, tanners.
Please, could you elaborate on it?
Charlotte: Yes, that is it then. A quick note. I think it
is up to whom and all that, but anyway. Between us, well, I will say it. Nevertheless,
I think you only mentioned it briefly for the sake of clarity. However, I fight
against that term. Therefore, I am fighting completely the term
"untouchable" which is the equivalent… I say this for the benefit of
the French men and French women, who would listen to us. It is the equivalent
of saying "nigger" for black people. Because, and it is horrible for
me to say this. However, by employing the word, “untouchable” we imply that the
person cannot be touched. Because touching that person would pollute us. Well, this
thought occurred to me several times because people do not realize it, but they
really should. For me, this is my little battle. So, as you said at the beginning
"outcaste" is very good and moreover, I think that is much clearer. "Outcaste"
or "Dalit" for Hindus. Therefore,
"Dalit," as a reminder, means oppressed and that is their political
name, by the way. But "Outcaste," explains to us clearly that these
are not people who are at the bottom of the caste system.
These are people who like foreigners elsewhere… So, in my case, we are
outside of the system of the four major castes. It is exactly the same as for
Christians. The dichotomy between, the separation between the upper castes and
the lower castes, it becomes on the notion of supposed or unsupposed conversion
to the religion being discussed. Therefore, in both cases actually, whether for
Christians or Muslims, the upper castes are those who have arrived directly.
So, they are direct heirs of Saint Xavier or the Muslims, the first Muslims
that had arrived (in India). Nevertheless, these are not people who have converted
unlike Ajraf and Azral, who themselves are often people who had converted to
Hinduism or to Christianity. To escape, precisely the caste hierarchy. However,
certainly with an abject failure, as we just discussed. That is often the case.
For instance, in Gujarat, there are many "Desai". The
"Desai", this could also be a Muslim "jati" or a Hindu
jati, a sub-caste that is. In the case of Gujarat there are also a great many
Hindus who converted in the “Middle Ages” to Islam in order to be able to escape
the myth of the "Khara Pani - the black water". The fact that Hindus
could not trade, could not go to sea to trade because leaving the "Bharat
mata" was something that was not possible in religious thought. Therefore,
that is to explain a little bit the trajectories. Indeed, I do not have much
more to say since you have…
Thank you for this excellent diagram. And that reflects exactly the
castes within Muslims… Finally, the distinction, I would just say that for the
castes among Christians and Muslims, unlike among Hindus, is the true concept
of ritual pollution. I think there are many people who are already familiar with
this if they have been following your channel, regarding the ritual of
pollution, that is to say really a touch… It is considered that these people or
being in contact with these people itself would jeopardize our purity. This practice
is a little less present among Christians and Muslims. Because, well, I would
not say that it is a negative aspect… well, indeed, I do not consider that it
is the most egalitarian organization of a society. However, I am just a social
scientist. I would merely say that there is actually a hybridization as has
been the case in religion. For example, Barelvi Islam is very much influenced
by the Hindu practices. Conversely, in Hinduism, when the Hindus went to the
"Dargahs", therefore to the tombs of the hybridized saints… And this
hybridized aspect had come from Islam. So here too, I always say that to remind
to people who, in fact, have been constantly told about this so-called
"clash of civilizations". I do not believe it for a second and which
would in fact be ontological in the Indian society, between Christians, Hindus,
and the Muslims, that is false. I also always remind people that firstly the
issue arose when…of course, there was the partition… Therefore, there were
inter-religious issues at stake. However, the main concerns that dominated the
early years of Indian democracy, during the 1950s – 1960s, these were the
linguistic battles, where people were killing each other for linguistic reasons,
for the language based state border recognition. Therefore, it deconstructs
once again the prism through which we live today.
Anubandh: Another word
you used in the book, in addition to "outcaste", is the word that
relates to the practice of "social distancing". Therefore, that is the end of this
chapter.
To move forward, you clearly stated that in 2002, these were not “riots”
for you. It was a pogrom. Especially if we compare it with other riots that
existed in Gujarat in the past. However, before we talk of these riots or of
the pogrom, I would like to quote Yogendra YADAV who is a political scientist
from India. For him, when it comes to
riots or pogroms, there is nothing spontaneous about it. “Everything” is
already well planned. Therefore, this is an important aspect to
understand.
And you identified two aspects for the 2002 pogrom. Firstly, there was
an electoral objective at stake.
Secondly, it is about the ideology. I am just going to quickly point out
some ideas that you explained in the book. And then, I will invite you to
respond.
You said, “in 2002 violence was rife there in the northern or in the
central districts but not in Saurashtra and Kutch where the Congress party was
in a favorable position for the elections scheduled for March 2003.” Therefore,
the violence was targeted for the forthcoming elections. And when you talk
about ideology, you say that "the goal was to destroy partially to
subjugate completely.” Thus, the mission was not to eradicate the minority. Because
otherwise we would have had attacks by the Hindus in exclusively Muslim
neighborhoods. No, what we observed on the contrary is that the violence took
place exclusively in Muslim residential areas inserted into Hindu
neighborhoods. Localities in Ahmedabad
such as Naroda Patia or Gulburg Society and not on the periphery large Muslim
neighborhoods, like the old town or to Juhapura. Thus, very few incidents happened in Juhapura. And also, you mentioned "Tandalja
abaroda". It did not witness many
incidents.
Lastly, the subjugation that was intended by the authorities was embodied
in the motivated regrouping of the Muslims in the ghetto at Juhapura. And what really struck to me is that in the
end, you add a little note and you say that “this act (ghetto in Juhapura) can
also be analyzed like the “first act of resistance” by the minority.
It is up to you to elaborate now.
Charlotte: First, I
think it is important to say why I am talking about pogroms and not riots.
Riots are, to put it very simply; these are confrontations that position two
groups, with approximately numerically equivalent populations. This was
absolutely not the case (in 2002 Gujarat). In the case of pogroms. Why am I
talking about pogroms? Because the pogroms, these are… the definition I use,
because for me, every time, obviously, each time, I define everything I say. I am not just saying that
out of nowhere… It does not just happen to me like that. No, that is not my
“opinion”, it is my “analysis”. I think it is important to keep that in mind.
Pogroms are targeted attacks on a minority. Targeted because of their
religious and racial affiliations, so on and so forth. And it is with the
complicity, active or passive of the authorities. That is exactly what
happened. The Muslims were targeted because they were Muslims. Moreover, with
the active complicity of authorities. It is to be remembered that the Muslims
were not at all numerically equivalent to their Hindu attackers! We should
remember this. Therefore, this is what I
wanted to say regarding the pogrom.
I will answer to what Yogendra YADAV says. I share his view but I would
like to nuance it. That is to say, it is not to say that the riots, finally, the
pogroms, they were planned on 26/02 at such and such a time, or on 27/02. You
see, that is not what we are saying. The point is to say that, factually, there
was a lot of infrastructural stuff, which was already planned. For example, and
this is the thing about the gas cylinders. That is still incredible! Anyone who
has lived in India knows that to get your gas cylinder changed, you are going
to have a bit of a hard time. Finally,
it takes a little time. You do not get it that easily. So then, when you see
guys arriving with… I do not know how
many gas cylinders. Finally, I would say unless the person owns a gas agency, I
do not see how that is possible. When you conduct interviews with people, they
tell you that they were… because I actually worked on Ahmedabad. I will talk
about Baroda a little bit but only in the spirit of putting on a (comparative)
perspective.
When you do interviews with the people who tell you that they were quite
surprised because, in October – November 2001, there were people who came to
make a census of them. Therefore, people did not really understand what it was
about. This was not the scheduled, regular census exercise (which had already
happened in February 2001). In this case, it indeed happened in that unusual, suspicious
manner. These are Muslims who told me about. They did not quite understand at that
time why it was happening. And then when they say, “we were very surprised
because in our neighborhood, there are vegetarian restaurants, with Hindu names
and even we did not know that their owners were Muslims!”. These (restaurants)
were targeted because the attackers had the (census) records of commerce and
business. Well, this is where Yogendra YADAV and I agree. He is talking about
something related to the preplanned preparation. That is to say, the idea was to
be prepared in case it happens. In any case, to have total collusion with the
authorities.
I say that the objective of all this…
In fact, that is what we see in India today. Now, there is less and less need for (overt)
violence because, in fact, it is increasingly happening through legislation. Thus,
in fact, Muslims are increasingly prevented from “living”, “thanks” to the law.
Thanks to the laws that are promulgated. If the objective had been to murder
strictly and purely, then that would constitute to a genocide. Had it been to
attack Muslims with an intention to eliminate them, then the attackers would
have targeted in Ahmedabad, the (Muslim dominated) old town and Juhapura. However, the attacks happened at the
outskirts of those places, like I told you, that is why... People went into the
Muslim pockets of, including in the Western City, which we were talking about
earlier. What really happened at that moment? People were scared, but they
could not escape… Therefore, they sought ethnic exclusivity which was perceived
as protective. That is what I am saying. However, they could not go in the old
town, because the old town, it was already congested. However, Juhapura is a
very large space with rather poor or lower middle class population. Therefore,
there is space (land) available here. Then there are those who already have
small shacks there. So that is how, they found themselves settling there. Nevertheless,
this was a refuge, they took a refuge there. Especially the wealthy, the senior
officers. Because there are also Muslim officers that exist, but they are few
in numbers. There are senior civil servants but that has largely changed. There
are even airplane pilots. All these people, in short, these are rich people. Because,
once again, Ahmedabad is a rich city.
The Muslims there are rich. They regrouped in Juhapura. In fact, to begin
somewhere…
Therefore, this is where I come back to my "resistance". To begin resisting, and why? I am saying that is the first thing, the
first act of resistance. It is about protecting yourself by being in a
neighborhood where the
"borders", as they are called, are protected. Thus, you start to resist.
And above all, it is the arrival of these upper classes who transformed
Juhapura from a disadvantaged neighborhood of a Muslim segregated neighborhood to
a Muslim ghetto. Because that is what makes a ghetto.
I work with the concept of Loïc WACQUANT who argues that a ghetto is not
at all about economic poverty. It is quite the contrary. That is why, for me, there
are no ghettos in France. There are areas of relegation. The ghetto is
precisely defined by its diversity. The ghetto is a lockdown, a constraint, an
identity stigma, and the duplication of institutions that the state does not
provide. Thus, to put it in another way, the Indian state does not provide education
and health in Juhapura. It is going to be the residents themselves who will provide
these public services. You can see that once we have to put that in place, to
be able to provide “public services” in your neighborhood, you need to have
resources for that. You have to be rich. Otherwise, you do not have the means to
finance hospitals, clinics and so on. As soon as that happened, that is where I
witnessed resistance. It happened with the arrival of the upper and middle
castes. They arrived to Juhapura with their money, their socio-economic background
and so on. This is the first act of resistance. Because these are the people
who would develop the ghetto.
And one more thing. It is absolutely false to say that it is in the
Juhapura ghetto or in the French suburbs
that the state is absent. The Indian state has a very strong presence in
Juhapura. Really, they are extremely present there. There is one public service
that is extremely present in that neighborhood, it is the police and the
justice system (law and order). That is the problem. That is why it is a
choice. Well, you see… Do you see what I mean? That is the reason you should
not think that there has been an abandonment. There is a very significant
support system in place of these neighborhoods.
Anubandh: Yes. We shall
talk about the life in Juhapura a little later.
However, just so we can finish this history linked to the riots and the pogrom. Therefore, in Gujarat, there
were at least three major riots before 2002. There were riots in 1969… Well,
there were also two that happened in 1963 and 1968, but perhaps they were
slightly of a less severity. Then, we also had riots in 1985 and in 1992. What
I found interesting and that you quoted in the book is that these were not
merely conflicts between communities, religions but there were also
socio-economic aspects involved. As you were talking about, for example, the collapse
of the textile industry and also the huge unemployment, that had somewhere also
fueled this violence. And in case of 1969, you have also provided evidence, like
regarding the planned nature of these riots. For example, in 1968, there
already had been a Hindu camp where it had been explained how to behave during
the riots.
And one last point regarding 2002. In Christophe JAFFRELOT's book, «
Gujarat Under MODI », he also notes that the weapons were procured from the
state of Punjab, well ahead of the violence and that they had been distributed
among attackers. Therefore, there is a little bit of preparation involved. For
me, these are the three main riots that had you mentioned. Do you have anything
to say?
Charlotte: Indeed, in fact then… Already,
there is a distinction, namely 1969, 1985 and finally 1992… 1969 and 1985, for
once, were riots. That is to say, there are Muslims and Hindus, unlike in 2002.
Yes, that is to say, in fact… how to put it, actually… As I said, there is no ontological
opposition between the Muslims and the Hindus there. As if it has always been
in the air, and these people. No, no, that is not true.
In fact, people lived together for centuries.
It should be remembered that Christians, as also is the case with Muslims, they
arrived in India in the first century of the respective creation of their
religion. We are not talking about a recent immigration. For me the foundation
to intercommunal violence is always economical. Moreover, it is interesting because
Gujarat is a rich state. Further, as you mentioned, it was a state that was
very industrialized. It was the Indian Manchester, even back then because Great
Britain was sending back in India, the fabrics, the textiles needed to be
treated before retrieving it again in Great Britain. In fact, in the 1950s –
1960s, there is a phase of industrial restructuring. Therefore, we are going
through some very large industrial units, which employ a lot of labor at much
more advanced chemical industries and so on. Therefore, a very large wave of
layoffs took place. Knowing that at the time when you were a factory worker, it
was not just a job, it was a social safety net. Because, there was everything… a
bunch of advantages that were shared. Actually, there was, I do not know, I am
just talking random, but those were not unions. It was not exactly that, but we
will... to make it quick, we will translate it imperfectly as being unions. And
these then brought into contact Indians and Muslims workers who worked
together.
In fact, riots also occur quite often in poor
neighborhoods. At the beginning, they are populated by "outcaste"
Hindus and Muslims who are the first victims of unemployment. Therefore, they
are the most receptive to the "Netas", to the (political) Chiefs.
Because, in addition to the works of Christophe JAFFRELOT, who has read me very
well, there is above all, the most relevant writing by « War beren shot ».
He demonstrates, for example, that
regarding 2002, the neighborhoods where the attacks against Muslims are the
most violent, these are the neighborhoods where the Hindus, actually are the
most dependent on their “Netas”, therefore on the Chiefs from the neighbourhood
to have access to public services. That is, to have a place in the… how to say,
at hospital, to have a place at school and so on… Therefore, this is where you
need an intermediate contact because the public service is absent, precisely in
a public and universal way. In fact, from the moment there are public services,
people are much less inclined to hit (kill) each other. It is really from the moment
where people can eat, can take care of oneself and so on…
And that is not just the Muslims… For example,
we were talking the 1985 riots. The 1985 riots, their origin dates back to 1981
when it was actually about some demands of the lower Hindu castes against the
upper castes. As a result, the lower castes were awarded considerable quotas
for access to the civil service and at university. This concerned a whole range
of social classes, for lower Hindu castes. While the upper castes were opposed
to that. Therefore, it is something that happened between Hindus.
However, between 1980 and 1985, there is this whole
job by the entrepreneurs of Hindu mobilization
which involved basically the entire Sangh Parivar… RSS, Bajrang Dal,
VHP, etc. They tried to project that “your enemy is not the Hindu high caste who
earns more money than you, but it is the Muslim next door, who is just as poor
as you.” You see, that is what conversion is! Obviously, I do not agree with
this claim. I consider it to be fallacious. In fact, research shows it. The
facts, when you look at the empirical data, the facts prove it.
Anubandh: Fair enough. Thank you very much.
There is just one last aspect, which is the life
in Juhapura. However, before we go there, I would like to summarize what you
said on the distinctive characteristics of the 2002 riots. I have prepared a
small table to summarize. I am just going to read these points.
The particularity of 2002, of the pogroms of 2002, it was "the orchestration of the pogrom by the state”. Thus, the political nature of the violence. So, "the implication of the Hindu majority, the police, the media, the government. And since everyone was involved, it was practically impossible for the Muslims to defend themselves.” There was a "double obsession with elimination of the internal enemy and the denial of its humanity. Women and children are systematically targeted. Therefore, "the sexual nature of the violence" is unprecedented in the perspective of the recent Indian history. Rape of women and girls in front of their families, rape also of men," which you noted. Thus, why Rape? Because “it is a powerful act of domination as it allows one to humiliate human beings in their flesh and in their soul.”
Next, "the educated upper castes and financially well-off people were attacked this time.” Then, "the destruction of Muslim places of worship. Therefore, for example, the tomb of a Sufi saint, the dargahs were destroyed.”
“Even sites with archaeological importance,
such as mosque of Mohafiz Khan which was built in 1485. Then the tomb by the
Urdu poet and Sufi saint, Walli Gujarati
built in 1707 was also destroyed.” And then what you noted is that
today, they have put "Orange flags at these places", which are a symbol
of Hinduism.
Then, we have "instrumentalization of
tribal groups. The tribal districts provided the bulk of the attackers. But
their activities have mainly been confined to looting and to set on fire.
Generally, they did not take part in the rapes and the murders". And the
result of all this was "a community of suffering, unlike in the case of
riots from 1965, 1985 and 1992. What do you think?
Charlotte: Yes. Well, first of all, thank you very much for this. That is where you
see the engineer’s mind! Thank you for
this diagram, it is very clear. It sums it up.
Because I realize, I think, it is also
important to mention, before getting back into all of this… but quickly,
moreover… but what was the ultimate goal of this pogram? You do not kill people just like that. I am
saying that the goal of these attacks was about dominating the Muslim minority.
I will return to the point of view of the authorities and that ultimately. I
show that “paradoxically”, since I am deconstructing the paradox. All my
research work is about not leaving any paradox. In fact, it (this violence)
allowed the resistance by the inhabitants (of Juhapura), based on what we said
earlier. The wealthy, upon arriving in Juhapura have developed their
neighborhoods in a great way. And as the locals tell you today “Juhapura is the
Jewel! We have self-made angels”. Therefore, they are very, very proud of this
self-development and of no longer being (dependent). Precisely because they
have emerged from the stigma of a relegated neighborhood. Therefore, that is
important to highlight.
Thus, "domination and resistance: "The
paradoxes of ghettoization in Juhapura" which is the original title of my thesis,
my own original title. I say this because there are two or three articles that
have been published, which bear the title of my thesis, without necessarily
referring (or acknowledging) to me. I find that a little spurious, but anyway.
From the authorities' point of view, the point of… I believe that is why… I am
saying that the violence was targeted. In fact, I am writing an article in
“Espace politique”, dedicated really to the ethnic cleansing dynamics. Because,
that is what it is all about for me. Therefore, it is like for this whole bunch
of reasons that I explained… For example, you see, when we talk about rape, it
is not (the usual) rape... which by the way, is already atrocious. However,
these are not typical rapes. These are rapes
that were committed with “Trishuls”, with tridents, with swords. That is to say
with the attributes of Hindu gods. Thus, it still means something. It means to
anchor oneself in the other's body, with the intention to dilute the purity of
the other. In fact, “to pollute” them, you know. The same applies to rape. The
men were also raped. The Muslim (man) is supposed to be someone who reproduces
a lot and so on and so forth. The men were raped. In fact, often their penises
were cut off. Finally, I mean, there are things (similar) that we find in the
genocidal dynamics in Rwanda. For example, between Tutsi and Hutu, where both
sides attacked. How to put it, by targeting what in their fantasy was their
domination. You see? Therefore, that is still important to say.
By the way, you were talking about Hindu flags.
The places that were targeted, the religious sites that were targeted, it is very
important to specify that these are not the mosques of everyday life. So, the
mosques of the “Muslims”, the nearby mosques and so on. Those that are really
in your neighborhood. No, they (the
targets) are the heritage sites. Finally, the sites of "Dargah" which
were not just visited but were practiced, by both Hindus and Muslims, you know?
Therefore, places of diversity, of religious syncretism. Thus, it was necessary
to destroy in people's minds that it ever had existed and that the dargahs
existed. The dargah of Walid GUJARATI, who is someone extremely well known. Today,
the dargah is covered in concrete, in cement. It is dying… Anyway… and the "heritage mosques",
because that is precisely what cultural heritage is about. Therefore, the cultural
heritage of everyone.
And I also want to remind you that there are
several campaigns like that of removing the Taj Mahal from the tourist guides!
Because it was something that belonged to the Muslims in Uttar Pradesh. There
are also recurring demands to change the name of Ahmadabad and to give it a
Hindu name. Anyway, it is an obscure village name that never existed. I am sorry.
I am being a bit blunt. That is what history shows us. Well, I also allow myself sometimes to be a
little teasing about the offensive cultural reinventions. And so, for me the
plan, from the point of view of the authorities was to reclaim “spaces”
because… as I was saying, the "Muslim pockets", the areas that were
targeted were wealthy places. They were wealthy neighborhoods, wealthy
properties. Thus, actually, it is not a bad idea to usurp these properties
especially when you get them so cheap. Therefore, this is what it is about…
I will leave aside the electoral aspect, which
is a bit “simple” to be understood. You mentioned it. Just a reminder that
Narendra MODI, was appointed in 2001, and not elected. He was appointed by
replacing Keshubhai PATEL of RSS, of BJP too, but who had fared poorly in terms
of election results during the midterm
elections. Thus, the BJP expected to lose the elections that were to follow.
Therefore, for them, it would have been a catastrophe. Because, Gujarat is the
first state that the BJP has won alone in 1995.
Basically, to start a riot is for the BJP a way to mobilize its electorate.
Whatever the case may be. And in the Gujarati political scene, there is an absence
of Left political parties, the CPI - "Communist Party of India". They
have no appeal there. And the Congress is already a very right-wing Congress in
the line of the tradition of the conservative Vallabhai PATEL.
Anyway, I am closing this electoral chapter
that I hope people will forgive me, but here it is which is quite simple to understand. On the other hand, regarding
the ideological aspect, what do we find today and what continues to influence
political thought in India? So, to usurp the territories, to purify the Hindu
spaces. This is exactly what happened in New Delhi in 2020. New Delhi is the
same thing. These are areas that have actually been not so poor. They have been
seized and have resulted in creating a seamless Hindu territory. And as a
consequence, it helps to put Muslims together. Therefore, that is the principle
of the black ghetto in the United States. It is because we do not want this
population which is considered to be inferior and who are second-class
citizens. On the other hand, we do not want to cut ourselves of their economic
exploitation! Therefore, we are not
going to make them disappear because we need them. That is the reason we group them
together.
Anubandh: Thank you so much Charlotte for these very relevant explanations.
I would like to end this interview with
Juhapura. Because the book is primarily about Juhapura. I am just going to quote
the chapters in the book that you have developed, for those who are interested
in this topic. And since you know well about the sensitivity of this topic and
how it is still quite a taboo in India.
Charlotte: Absolutely, yes! That is it, especially in India!
Anubandh: Therefore, it is important to talk about it.
Thus, a few
chapters related to Juhapura.
There is Juhapura, from a slum to a ghetto. You mentioned lockdown, the state in the ghetto, camps in the ghetto, everyday resistance tactics, the art of everyday living. In the conclusion of this book, you pointed out three important aspects; that there is state discrimination towards the people of Juhapura, towards Muslims. Therefore, no public services are present such as water, schools, hospitals. Then there are resistance tactics, self-help groups. One last thing which is very interesting and important, it is about domination. You talked about two types of dominations; one is gender and another is domination by other castes. Therefore, there you have it. Further, the financial situation that is quite difficult now a days for the people there.
And yes, it
is also important to point out that it has been a while that you wrote this
book. It was published in 2018. Therefore,
naturally, things have evolved, have changed since. But what do you think about
this experience, regarding these observations concerning Juhapura? Do you have
any words to say to us? In order to properly conclude this chapter?
Charlotte: Yes, and even earlier than that because the book is based on my doctoral
thesis. It is a result of my thesis
research that I did between 2009 and 2014. Thus, I added a few things that I
had done in 2016. But that is just to be very clear.
What do I have to add? We must not as well keep
a very « rosy picture » about this. I mean,
the Muslims of Juhapura, they are not all united. Are they all together? Not at
all! By the way, there are some who even vote for the BJP, to stay with the
powerful. That is what they tell me. In order to keep oneself safe. Thus, these
are often “sectarian” minorities within them, representing the obedience by the minorities. And
then, above all, as in all situations like this, there are dominant and
dominated people. Therefore, the lower castes or the Muslim outcastes are here
in a context where there is no public service, if not for the police. There is no
public service, there is no welfare state. And how do we actually define where
we are? Consequently, we are in a situation that primarily depends on private
initiatives for development. And rather, these private initiatives that will
also “choose” the beneficiaries. That is the whole problem, why? We are against
the patronage, against the charity. In fact, people “choose”, whereas with a
universal tax, the state invests in a non-arbitrary manner, in a non-selective
manner and not by “choosing”. In such scenarios the poorest find themselves
completely dependent on these intermediaries or on charity. Once again, they
find themselves placed at the bottom of the pyramid, you see? And you have got
some stuff there. One can see it anyway…
At least, it was still back then… well, I think it hasn't changed since
but, every morning, you see the Muslim “daily workers” arriving. So, these are
people who really live very frugally and
who are employed with wages that are even lower. I mean, wages that are even
lower (than the market rate) because they are discriminated against by
everyone. In fact, and that is the plan. Therefore, these are the conclusions
that I identified in 2014.
Since then, two or three people continued the
research in that direction. Nevertheless, I am still claiming the maternity of
all this, which is entirely mine. For example, it was me who started to identify
Juhapura as a Muslim city and no longer as a ghetto, in the sense that it is a
real, dynamic (thriving) space. That is very, very dense. And it is built very
tall. In fact, if people are curious, go look at some photos on Google Images. You
see constructions everywhere in Juhapura. Or else, buy my book! No, I am just
kidding. However, the construction is huge. It is becoming denser vertically with
towers like "Al Burj Tower", that will remind us some names from the
golf. Therefore, it is a city in the sense where there is more separation among
each other.
And I will say it again, but indeed for women.
It is rather a conservative city. It is more complicated for women there. Here
too, one must guard against a preconception. How should I put it? The situation
is not all harmonious. Excuse me, but women who found themselves widowed, following
the pogrom, they found themselves involved in (sex) trafficking by certain Muslim
actors. Finally, I mean, I am honest about what I do. Therefore, there you have
it. Women are vulnerable. Obviously, and once again, as always, they are the least favored, economically
speaking.
However, it is a neighborhood that is a city
within a city, you know. It is still a very dynamic area. And it has many links
with the workforce, with the Gulf countries.
Anubandh: Thank you very much, Charlotte.
Now, to finish up and to broaden the debate a
bit and to make a link with the present. In my opinion, what is happening in Gaza today… and I think
it is important to make that connection. Because for the Hindutva supremacists,
for the people from RSS and BJP in India… It is paradoxical, but for them, their
model was the model of Hitler, of the Nazi. And today, it is also the model of
Israel, in regard of what they are doing in Gaza.
Charlotte: Ah… absolutely yes!
Anubandh: And then, we also need to emphasize that India is the largest buyer of
Israeli weapons. They use the same methods like a "bulldozer" in
Uttar Pradesh, to destroy the homes of Muslims.
So… Do
you have any thoughts on this matter?
Charlotte: Yes, yes… ah, there you are… obviously, I am going to be utterly late
but it is okay, because I cannot ignore something that is so serious and
important.
First thing. Yes, for everyone who are
listening to us. So M. S. GOWALKAR… It is funny because I am reading him right
now. He is one of the “Hindutva” ideologues. “Hindutva” once again. I make this
difference. Thus, not “Hindu” but “Hindutva”. He explains in the 1960s… that it
is necessary to replicate what Hitler did… that the same must be done with (Indian)
Muslims. And he wrote it down, in black and white! We have to deal with the Muslims
the way Hitler dealt with the Jews. So, we are still dealing with a political
thought which I sometimes wish should make us reflect a bit, especially when we
applaud and most notably, when the current French president (Emmanuel MACRON)
appreciated in 2019, the "democratic achievements" of the Indian
democracy. While on the other hand, India had just revoked the special status
of Kashmir. I think that they really need to work on… they need to work on their
political understanding.
What you are saying is extremely relevant and
extremely serious. Several things in this regard.
The first is that since the terrorist attack in
Kashmir in 2019. And what you say about the destruction caused by bulldozers. So,
you remember the little map you were showing us in the beginning? There we had
the "Industrial Belt"… and if people still have the map in mind… just
a month ago, something like that, maybe even a little less, near Danilimda
(Ahmedabad). Therefore, it is in the industrial area in the South. It is in the
Southeast of the industrial zone. There is a whole Muslim colony with people who
had lived there since the 1960s. But then it is like… You and I, we are at our
home, then we wake up in the morning, and then, a bulldozer comes along and
wrecks your house! That is how it happened! I discussed it with people I know
in Gujarat. They demolished around 80 houses. Thus, 300 families are out on the
street. On what principle, on what motive? That they were housing, that these
neighborhoods housed Pakistanis… Bangladeshis or Pakistani terrorists! Therefore,
there is a little continuity here based on what we are currently observing, particularly
in the West Bank.
I also come back to the comparison with Gaza,
more specifically on Kashmir which is an area that I also worked on. In any
case, there is a very strong solidarity between the Kashmiris and the Gazans. And
if you have seen images and so on. However, for example, there is "Free
Gaza" which is tagged just about everywhere, on the walls of Srinagar, the
capital of Kashmir. When you talk with Kashmiris, or wherever you read the
Indian authorities, what you observe is the plan of the Hindu authorities of
today, it is about turning Kashmir into a West Bank. In other words, let us be
cautious here as well. The Congress before always dealt with Kashmir from an
economic and security perspective. That is not the point. The Kashmiris have
never been respected. Nevertheless, the BJP adds an identity dynamic to it. Therefore,
the goal is to create a West Bank. That is to say, to keep some small villages
more or less Muslim and everything else.
In fact, that is exactly what is happening with the removal of the
special status in 2019. Thus, the possibility for non-Kashmiris to settle in
Jammu and Kashmir and to buy land there. Some 85,000 Hindus have settled there.
And then there are tourists too. Finally, there are 3.5 million, roughly the
equivalent of half of the population of Kashmir. And they buy land there and so
on.
Therefore, all this is to say that beyond
Gujarat, everything that is happening right now is really extraordinary. And
the authorities are not hiding it. As you said, the affinities you mentioned on
the economic front with weapons, they are also diplomatic and political. NETANYAHU
and MODI do not hide their mutual friendship. There is a real will to do so. It
is a supremacist regime. Therefore, I worked on that angle as well. Rather, I
am drafting a research paper also where I establish, with all poise, to make a
link with the fascist concept in the sense described by GOWALKAR. That is to
say, not anchored at all in a given historical context. In fact, fascism, it
comes, it comes back, it goes away and now we are witnessing it being
rejuvenated in several states and countries.
Today, Muslims, like Christians a single day is
not missed without you reading in the news. And be it by the central state or by the federated
states, that a repressive law towards Muslims is not passed. For instance,
there is a law to ban the “Burkha” in Karnataka. So, the veil for Muslims. However,
how do Hindus do it then? Hindu women wear the veil for many reasons. They wear
the veil. Why? So as not to get a tan. And especially the wealthy women. They
wear, they cover their faces so as not to pick any (dark) color. Therefore, in
short, I will end with that and so on.
Yes, the parallel is obvious. Once again, also
regarding the use of tourism as a weapon of occupation. And they do not hide it either.
Anubandh: Charlotte, thank you so much!
Charlotte: Sorry, one last thing about that. But it is also worth remembering that many
Hindus volunteered to go and fight war in Gaza, of course.
Anubandh: Indeed, and the Indian state supported these efforts!
Charlotte: Exactly. Actively. That is all.
Anubandh: Thank you very much Charlotte and congratulations for this work which
was undoubtedly a rather a difficult job, I imagine. It was very courageous of
you to write this book, and to publish it. I hope this book will be read by
many people and not just in France. That it will be published, I hope in
English and in other Indian languages. So, thank you very much.
Charlotte: But I wanted to convey a very big thank you to you. Thank you also for
the presentation work. I mean, regarding the presentation material that you
made. The charts, the summary and everything. I think it is very important and
very interesting, all this summary work that you did for the people who listen
to us. Thank you.
Thank you also for this opportunity to speak. It
was the first time I had spoken in such detail regarding my work. And we will
make a volume two, I am sure of it! A
second volume, but thank you. Thank you to the people who were listening to me.
I would like to remind you that because… I have suffered a little… I remind you
that all of this is an analysis. So, once again, please do not ruin my day on
social media and do respect mutually. There you go, I say that because I really
had complicated things with people who even
came physically (to obstruct) during my conferences and so on, that is
it.
Anubandh: That is why, congratulations again to you! And I hope to be able to talk
with you soon.
Charlotte: Exactly! Same here, thank you.
Charlotte THOMAS
Charlotte THOMAS is a political scientist (Sciences Po Paris) and an
associate of the Asia program at IRIS. Her research focuses on the
socio-spatial dynamics of Indian Muslims, particularly in Gujarat and Kashmir.
Based on her doctoral dissertation, her book, “Pogroms and Ghetto: Muslims in
Contemporary India”, was published in 2018 (Karthala, IISMM series).
She has taught political science and urban
studies at Sciences Po Lille and Sciences Po Paris, and was a Junior Visiting
Fellow at the IWM in Vienna. Charlotte Thomas has also been a postdoctoral
researcher at CERI-Sciences Po for the Observatory of Religious Phenomena
(DGRIS-CERI-EPHE) and the Louis Massignon Chair for the Study of Religion, and
co-led the South Asia program (SAProg) of the Noria research network, within
which she directed a South Asia Observatory (DGRIS-Noria).
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