“Chola Maati” is a
recently published book (in English and in French) beautifully narrates the
age-old rituals, from death to birth, of the Pardhan Gond tribals from central
India. The founder of the organization “DUPATTA”, Christian JOURNET,
along with Padmaja SRIVASTAVA (Author), Mayank SINGH SHYAM
(Painter) and Komal BEDI SOHAL (Photographer & Book Designer) have
magnificently put together this oeuvre d’art!
The book was unveiled at the emblematic “Passage Choiseul” (Espace
Cinko) in Paris with an exhibition of paintings by Mayank SINGH SHAM.
Presenting to you here a unique and exclusive discussion with the entire team.
Note:
1) The conversation is in three languages i.e. English, French and in
Hindi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ubK4oa13hU
2) Simultaneous subtitles are provided in two languages.
2) This interview could be read in the form of an article in the
following languages: English, French,
Italian, Marathi, Hindi, Bengali and Kannada.
https://thefrenchmasala.blogspot.com/2025/12/chola-maati-pardhan-gond-rituals-from.html
Anubandh: Hello! My
name is Anubandh KATÉ. I am a Paris based engineer and also the co-founder of
the collective that is called “Les Forums France Inde”.
Today, I am really pleased that I have four special guests with me. They
are here because I happened to to attend last week a beautiful exhibition of a
book that is titled “Chola Maati”. It is about the “Gond Pradhan” tribe from a
small village called Patanagar in Madhya Pradesh. So, these four people that I
am going to introduce you to are behind this exciting project. They have
published a book which puts together all the beautiful paintings by the artists
from this region. It also has some nice photographs
and a narration of the community life there.
First of all, I would like to introduce Christian JOURNET. He leads the organization called “Dupatta”. Then I have with me Padmaja SRIVASTAVA,
Mayank SINGH SHAM and finally Komal BEDI SOHAL . I will now invite Christian to
present to us the story behind this project and behind his collective “Dupatta”.
I will switch to French because Christian has preferred to speak in
French.
Good evening Christian.
Christian: Good
evening.
Anubandh: I now invite
you to explain to us about your involvement in this project and in “Dupatta”.
And also, if you could tell us about the book “Chola Maati”. About the
paintings and works that you presented in Paris through exhibitions.
Christian: So, I am
going to talk about two origins.
The first origin; it is the origin of our association, “Dupatta”. Why does it exist? What are its
objectives? Then, indeed the origin of
the “Chola Maati” project in which I participated. As far as “Dupatta” is concerned, it is
important to know that it is a non-profit, non-lucrative organization created
in 2008 with the main objective to collect the stories and paintings within
tribes and minorities from India, in a way to make them known to the French
public. Therefore, to do this, I travel
to many places across India. In the North, as in the South, as in the East and
in the West. Also in the center, as we will see it in detail later in the
paintings. I travel in search of stories.
Later, in France, I organize exhibitions with a team of thirty people, under
the name of the association “Dupatta”. We go to like four or five times a year in
different French cities, in galleries to display this work that is collected
from Indian tribes and minorities. That
is the goal of “Dupatta”. And to achieve
this I rely on people who are in India and who know India well. Those who are familiar
with the tribes and the Indian art and folk arts and so on… and for me the main
person here is Padmaja SRIVASTAVA. We
have been working together for years now.
Every time I am in India, that is to say at least twice a year, we try
to meet, to go together to explore Bengal or Maharashtra or other regions. She introduces me to painters. Today, she is
clearly the person who has the greatest knowledge of folk arts in India. Therefore,
we are used to working together.
One day, she told me, it was maybe three years ago that she had a
project with Mayank, which consisted of creating a book, followed by an
exhibition and so on… I listened to it
in a somewhat distant way at first. Later,
I was hooked on it. In particular, I
went with her to Mayank’s native village, his father's native village. I also
met there Komal who is participating in this project as a photographer. That is when I was truly convinced, for both
the merits and the quality of this venture.
I will stop here for now. If you
have any specific question later I can respond, okay?
Anubandh: No, I really
wish to congratulate you for all your passion and involvement. Because leading
this kind of project with remote management and frequent travels, with so many
people involved, requires many efforts. You indeed are resourceful and you have
this ability to bring the two cultures and people together. Thank you very much
for this work.
To be noted that this book is published both in English and in French.
Now, I am going to invite Padmaja SRIVASTAVA.
I do have few words to say about her.
She is from Pune, she has studied architecture and in 1995 she moved to
Bhopal along with her husband to do work in architecture. There, she also
developed ecotourism in the tiger reserves in Madhya Pradesh. It was there that
she encountered the folk artists and in particular, the Pardhan Gonds of
central India. As Christian said, she is an active member of “Dupatta”. She
comes to France frequently to present the art forms and the work of artists
from India.
Padmaja, I was happy the other day when we met and when I listened to
you. You have played a very important role in this book of compiling a
beautiful narration. You have been visiting this village in Madhya Pradesh
since last more than 20 years. What I remember in your talk the other day that
there was this deep concern and perhaps a bit of regret that all this
traditional art, culture, skills are vanishing with time. However, this book is a proof that you are
doing all that you can so that people in France and across the world can
appreciate this work. Could you please tell us briefly, what was the
inspiration behind this book and this whole project?
Padmaja: Yes. As you
mentioned, I have been working with these people, with the Pardhan Gonds
particularly, for almost 20 years now. Very often, when I would sit with
Mayank, and I have known him also for a very long time. We would discuss about
the dying traditions and rituals of the Pardhan Gonds. I had noticed that the
younger generations were now leading a more global life. They were not
practicing their culture as much as their earlier ancestors, their forefathers
would have done. Thus, whilst talking to Mayank, we kind of came to a consensus
and we decided that we needed to do something about this. And the only way we
thought we could do is by documenting these traditions and rituals, by visiting
their villages, by interviewing people, by taking photographs, by witnessing
their rituals. That is how this book took form.
Anubandh: Ok. Thank
you.
And now I will move to Mayank SINGH SHYAM who is the son of the famous
artist Jangarh SINGH SHYAM. Jangarh has
a link with France because he had come to France a few times at least and he
had presented his work here. That was Mayank's father.
However, now we will talk about Mayank. And for that, I will choose Hindi
because Mayank is more comfortable with it.
So, Mayank is a the painter. He is an artist and his art is deeply
rooted in the expression of his thoughts, his innermost feelings and
imagination. He told me the other day
that he also experiments with natural colours and he uses those colours for his
paintings. Perhaps, he will tell us more about it later. In his paintings we
witness a lot of symbolism. Nature, of course, is the central idea. For
example, we see many fish in his paintings and that represents water, rivers,
rain, and ocean. Then there are trees. Trees represent Mother Earth, strength,
interconnectedness of living beings. Finally, the birds, which represent the sky,
the freedom and the heaven.
Welcome Mayank!
Mayank: Thank you Anubandh!
Anubandh: I am very
happy that you are with us today and we will be able to discuss together.
That day when we met, you described to me two-three of your paintings.
You talked about the idea behind it, how you portrayed it. Today I would like
you to share that with all of us. Before that, could you please tell us more
about how this process has been for you, what has been your journey like? You had mentioned that your father had a
great influence on your work. In addition, although you do not live in a
village, you are closely connected to the village life. How do you see all
this?
Mayank: Look, this
journey began in 2021. An artist always paints a picture from his imagination. I have known Padmaja for a long time. We have worked together for a long time. We
have been like a family. We have been
collaborating since long. Both of us once said that we should do something
together. I had this idea on my mind
that the entire human life happens on a piece of wood. I had told a story about
it. Then Padmaja also said, Mayank, why do not we tell this story? Our
traditional stories, our whole world, our lifestyle, our traditions, the lives
that we live in our villages. We said, let’s work on that.. And even my father did
not work on just one thing. He did not only worked on colors. He also worked
with clay and made statues. He worked in
graphics. Thus, after seeing his clay statues, I also felt from within, that I should as well work with clay, like my
father did. Then Padmaja once asked me, why do not you use your traditional colors
and start a new work? This way, a story
started for us.
By the way, there is a famous story from our village, which we all
believe in and worship it. It is about the
“Great God” (बड़ा देव). This is about the origin of
the Great God and the origin of this earth. This story has been inspiring me
from since long. Just looking at my father's paintings, I was inspired and
found this technique. My father always
said, whatever you do, what comes from within, from the heart, is the true art.
I believe in that.
Having met people like Padmaja, we carried this work forward. The first
thing I did in early 2021 is that I worked with “Ram Raj” clay. It is the traditional
clay. We have a tradition, in particular during our special festival “Diwali”
and also on other such festivals, that with this particular clay, we plaster
the walls of our home. This is a custom that we have. The custom of making a
place for gods and goddesses. With these same colors, I first made my paintings
depicting the origin of the earth and the birth of the great god. It was made
in natural color.
Yes, this is exactly the painting.
In this painting, there is one great thing that impressed me from the
beginning. This painting shows the
origin of the universe. In the beginning of time, in the entire universe, according
to the stories of our ancestors, the entire area was filled with water. It
means there was nothing of the sort earth or soil. It is said that in the
middle of this salty water, there was a lotus leaf (पुरई पान). And on it, there was a drop of sweet water. It is through
that drop, the Great God was born. So, I imagined that if I had to visualize
such a vast ocean, then I would not like to see it in colors. I would like to
see it as a fish. Therefore, I made the fish. And in the lotus leaf, thanks to
the small water drop, the god was born. Then, I asked myself, from where does
birth happen in real life? We all know
where every living being is born. It is through the vagina. Thus, I saw the
leaf as a vagina and it looked like the birthplace. That is what I imagined in
this painting.
Anubandh: Indeed, this painting
is very beautiful. Then there is another painting that you had shared with
me. I will show it as well.
Mayank: Often in our
community, people have told us some story or the other, in some custom or the
other, something of this sort is depicted. However, this time, in collaboration
with Padmaja, we did the entire series.
I have worked on it... I mean, from birth to death... from the very beginning until the very end. This
is the same picture that I made for “The End”.
Because we have a tradition here in which a doll is worshipped (गुड्डी पूजाई) in such a way that, in the end, the divine
power comes and enters the doll. We sprinkle water over it, like for all the
dead people. Then, a turmeric knot is tied with the name of the dead and it is
then hidden somewhere. And later, the God, through his/her power reveals it. And
by sprinkling water over it, it is satisfied.
The soul is freed from this life and is readied for a new birth as the
body has already perished. The soul then enters another body. By the way, I had heard another story about it
from my uncle. He had told me that whenever humans quit from this world, in
order to cremate our bodies, humankind has invented many rituals. However, what
about other living beings? There are
also birds, there are insects, and there are spiders... There are animals... when they die, who will
satisfy them? Therefore, it is said that
a vulture bird was given a task. It had received orders from the house of God
that whenever some living creature dies, for instance, if you see an animal, then
eat it immediately and afterwards, do drink water. So, what the vulture usually
does is that it immediately eats the dead creature and then goes to a distant
river and drinks water. Once the water is sprinkled on the body, the soul is
freed and could then depart on a new life journey. As is our tradition about
the doll goddess, I tried to depict the same in this painting. Thus, this is
the thought process behind it. I compared it to the vulture bird that does the
task of satisfying the soul, of taking it towards a new birth, towards a new
life.
Anubandh: I also
realized this while reading your book.
It came to my mind that we all come from nature and we all will go back
to the nature again. The name of your is also "Chola Maati". So, we
have come from the soil (Maati) and will go back to the soil again.
Thank you. You explained it so beautifully.
Now, we will move to Komal BEDI SOHAL who is a photographer. She has
included her photographs in this book. I will briefly introduce her and then
invite her comments. Komal is an acclaimed director, designer and photographer.
She loves doing storytelling and I witnessed that the other day when she
explained to all of us her implication in this project. She also does visual
artistry. She has worked extensively in advertising. Komal has won several awards internationally
and she does exhibitions all over the world.
So, Komal, I would like now you to tell us about your impressions when
you were in that village, where you made several visits. You have stayed there
and you experienced the life of the people there. This really shaped your
vision about this project and this book. Could you please tell us your thoughts
about this?
Komal: Firstly,
Anubandh, thank you so much for inviting us to your platform. Thank you for
appreciating our book. For our exhibition, that was really a good feedback.
Thank you.
I actually met Mayank in 2022 and Padmaja had already conceived this
project. She had already started work on it. However, when she rather spoke
about it I was so intrigued because I am a big fan of the arts and I always
wanted to be involved. I moved back to India after about 25 years abroad.
Therefore, I really wanted to get into a very meaty project. When Padmaja spoke
to me about it, I was very impressed. We both made a trip to Patangar (Madhya
Pradesh) and it was more of a chemistry trip. I was absolutely blown over by
the village, by the people, by the culture, by the customs. And post that, both
Padmaja and I, we started sort of collaborating on it. We agreed to work
together. It was a very good chemistry. We had a fantastic job over the last
four years, putting this thing together. And for me specifically, if you talk
to me about the village, their rootedness to Mother Earth, their beliefs, how
ancient and wise everything was. For me, it was such a deep connection to the
earth that I wanted to be a part of it. There are many stories that I have,
which once we talk about the photographs, I can speak a little bit more about. But,
yes that is how the project began.
We started in 2022 and we have been working on it from then till now
which is 2025. Therefore, it has taken us four years to put this exhibition
together, to put the book together. I also designed the book, so that was
another sort of contribution along with Padmaja who wrote it, researched it and
I designed it. Mayank did all the paintings. It was a huge project and then of course,
Christian helped us all the way and bringing it to Paris was all thanks to him.
Anubandh: Yes. When one
looks at the book and of course at the exhibition, we see the aesthetics which
is very important and it is not just one aspect of the book but all the aspects
which have come together beautifully well.
Komal: Like of course,
there was storytelling which is the heart of the book because that is what we
are trying to do. Nevertheless, what was very important in the book was how
everything flows together. There was storytelling which is at the heart of what
we were trying to do. Therefore, to give importance to storytelling, to the
paintings, to the photographs, to the music that the village folk of Patangarh
sung, to the sketches that Mayank has made, everything needed to find a place
and to be presented very aesthetically. Then of course, the publishing and the
more hardcore aspects of getting a book out. It has been an amazing experience!
Anubandh: Indeed.
Before I invite you to explain to us these photographs, I think there was an
important aspect which I forgot and you just mentioned it. I would like to
highlight it again that in the book, you also have included folk songs of the
people there and which describe the different important stages or festivities
or important events in their lives. These are they are beautifully included,
embedded in the book. Thus, it is really a wholesome, a complete package of
celebration of life.
Komal: It is a
multi-disciplinary project.
Anubandh: Indeed. So, this is one of the photographs that you could explain to us.
Komal: So, as you know
Mayank was talking about the birth of “Bada Dev”. Now, this is such an esoteric
concept and how do you then rather encapsulate it in a photograph. Moreover,
these are not photographs that are a collage or put together in photoshop or
AI. This is a one single photograph. So, when he talks about fish being the
amniotic fluid and the lotus leaf being the birthplace of Bara Dev. How do I
then depict that in a photograph? Therefore, that is my interpretation. We had
decided very early on, the three of us that we were not going to recreate a
painting in a photograph or a photograph in a painting. They were all
interpretations. It was either Mayank's interpretation or mine. Thus, for me,
this lotus was sort of floating on a very dark silty lake with the stem that
then becomes the umbilical cord and the lotus leaf that becomes the womb and
the flower the birth. Therefore, I represent this as the birth of “Bara dev”.
So, beyond being an aesthetically pleasing photograph it sort of symbolizes
that it is a depiction of the birth of “Bara Dev”.
Anubandh: And that is a beautiful one!
Komal: Yes, so this photograph, actually, in the center of the village is this ancient tree. This tree sits on a slightly raised platform and I always wanted to make a photograph because this is the holiest of trees in the village. And this is where they believe that “Akor Dev” lives, in this tree. Therefore, this tree is a revered tree. I always wanted to make a photograph. It was a very cold and a very misty morning and I was sitting on that platform on the side, after having a walk through the village. And I suddenly, noticed this boy and he started to climb the tree. He was playing. He was just… you know, having a little bit of fun. And the minute I saw that boy climb the tree and in that negative space… as both the legs and both the arms touch the tree, I knew, I mean I got goosebumps… I knew I had the shot! So, that is what makes this shot beautiful, that little boy climbing the tree.
But what makes this shot special is and I have to tell you this. That
little lady, you see a lady figure in the background. Her name is Fagni bai.
So, as I was walking through the village. She was walking with me. As I saw
this boy run onto the tree, I ran behind him. I was wearing of course shoes and
socks. And I knew that this raised platform is a sacred platform because it is
their temple. However, I was so caught in the moment of getting that photograph
that I forgot to take off my shoes because there was no time! So, for about
half an hour I was around the boy. I was trying to make the perfect photograph.
I wanted him to be just that high, I wanted all four of his limbs to touch the
tree. I took the photograph. I felt very pleased with myself. I walked down the
platform and this lady is very patiently waiting for me to finish, As I walked
down, she took me to a house, we had a cup of tea. And over tea she told me, “do
not wear your shoes and climb on the platform because that is a sacred place.”
And I felt like such an idiot. I felt like an idiot because she should have
told me earlier! She should have said something but that is the hospitality and
the generous folk that they are. She said, “No, I knew you were working, I knew
you were busy, I knew you were making a photograph, I knew you meant no harm
and I didn't want to disturb you. Because I was enjoying watching you make the
photograph.” I mean, that kind of hospitality and rootedness you cannot find
anywhere. And that is really what we are trying to capture in this book and I
hope the book design is as simple, pure and that it represents these people in
some way and the photography of course.
Anubandh: Thank you. I
recall when you first narrated this the other day at the book exhibition and I
was really touched to listen to it. But now that you said, I noticed also one
more thing. You said that it was a misty, foggy morning and that is what we see
in the background. But when we see in the front, it is quite clear there. So,
that gives a kind of a contrast. And this little boy, he is almost levitating, he
is hanging, he is going up. That is a beautiful combination. There is clarity
and then there is something that is not so clear and the boy climbing in the
middle.
Now we are reaching the end of this discussion but there are few things
that I would like to highlight and then if you have comments, I invite all of
you or anyone of you to come ahead. What I really appealed me in this project is
the fact that we see that it is really a teamwork. You all have different
skills, you all have different inspirations but they somehow, like a river,
they come together. We all know the difficulties of working together, especially
when you are from different places, different languages. Christian is also part
of this project, so the sheer fact that the book is so beautifully written and
presented today. The fact that you are even doing an exhibition, speaks for
this teamwork. So, many congratulations for that!
Because when I was speaking with Mayank, the other day at the exhibition,
I could also sense the happiness, the joy in his voice, for having come to
France, for having found this possibility, this opportunity to talk to, to
communicate to, to present to French people, to people from a different culture,
his work. Thus, Christian is really bridging the gap between the people. He is
a giving us this opportunity and I think that is very important. This what we
also try to do at the “Les Forums France Inde”. And your’s is really a
creative, cultural way to do that. So, congratulations again for that.
Now, in case you have any last thought, a concluding word, I invite you
to talk.
Christian: Can I say a
few words now?
Anubandh: Yes of
course.
Christian: At
“Duppata”, we usually invite, practically every year some Indian painters with
Padmaja. We make the selection. Sometimes, it is a bit difficult. People need
to be able to adapt to and should find pleasure in doing so. They should also
find it useful to come to France. And
here, I would like to talk a little bit about Mayank. Intially, what I really
liked about him was his approach. This is the tribute he wants to pay to his
father. There are quite a few Pradhan Gond artists today. There are very few
who possess as much talent as Mayank. But above all, most of the painters have
a very strong ego. And that is not what I found in Mayank. He is someone who
truly lives the homage to his father. That is the first thing that attracted me
to him. The second, it is his love for the village. He chose the land, the ochre, the minerals
from his village to build colors over several years and to come to today's
result. Finally, the third thing, still concerning Mayank but also to other members
in this project. I accompanied them for a few days in the native village of
Mayank and Janagarh. And I was able to observe the image, the respect of the entire
population of the village with regard to Mayank. It is a respect for an entire
family, for an entire art, for a whole
way of expressing their gratitude regarding this village. I really thank
them because for me, at the beginning, it was a kind of micro-project and it
became something truly fascinating.
I will add one last thing and then I will stop. A few days ago when we
met up in Lyon with Komal, she asked me, “Which photo do you prefer the msot?”
I hesitated a little, I would say, I even pretended to hesitate a little. And I
told her, it is the little boy's photograph who climbs between the two tree
trunks! However, I didn't tell her why. In
fact, my reason is the following. It is because almost immediately, I thought
it was a crab, which was climbing between two tree trunks! And the crab, for those who know the legends
and myths among the Pardhan Gonds, it is essential in the story and the
imagination of Gonds. So, thank you Komal.
I do not know if you did it on purpose. Nevertheless, thank you for doing that
because for me, it is truly a sublime culmination of all the work that you have
done collectively.
I have nothing more to add regarding Padmaja. She knows well that it is
thanks to her that we could manage to do all this in France. Thank you again
Padmaja.
Anubandh: Well, thank
you very much, Christian. I really wish that all of you knew French because
there were a lot of beautiful and some very pertinent thoughts, appreciations
that Christian just expressed about Mayank, Komal and Padmaja.
Never mind, for this interview, I will try to have subtitles and we will
also make a transcript in different languages. This conversation will be
accessible to many.
A special thanks to all of you, unless others have a word to say as
well… Do you have anything to say or we conclude here?
Padmaja: I would just
like to say that, we have tried to document all that is happening as of now in
Patangarh. We have done the whole
exercise of research only in Patangarh. Frankly,
globalization is never going to stop. It is going to happen, but our endeavor
is just to see what is happening presently. And try and compare it to what was
in the past. I mean, we cannot change what is going to be. Nevertheless, all we
can do is try and restore… not even restore, but to document it for perpetuity.
Anubandh: Indeed.
I appreciate your efforts to publish this book in English and in French.
I would like to thank all of you for this session, for this conversation also
because you gave me a chance to talk in French, in English and in Hindi. Languages
are really important for me. I believe that they are meant to connect all of us.
What is even more important here are the human values, the human connections. With
these words, I thank all of you. I wish you a nice stay in Paris, a nice end of
your exhibition. I wish you many more visits to Paris and to France. Let us
hope that this book will be read and appreciated by many more people. Thank
you.
All: Thank you for
having us. Merci.
Padmaja's journey in the world of art and culture began in Pune, India,
where she completed her Bachelor of Architecture at Pune University. After
relocating to Bhopal in 1995, she established her architectural practice
alongside her husband. Together, they embarked on designing wilderness lodges
in proximity to prominent tiger reserves in Madhya Pradesh. It was during this
creative process that Padmaja encountered numerous folk artists and artisans,
which ignited her passion for championing their cause and becoming a dedicated
advocate for the tribes of India, particularly the Pardhan Gonds of central
India.
She is also an active member of a French NGO, Association “Duppata” that
promotes Indian tribal art in France.
Mayank SINGH SHYAM
Mayank’s work is rich with symbolism, where elements of nature hold
profound significance. In his art, fish often symbolize water, the ocean
and rivers. Trees serve as an analogy for Mother Earth, representing strength,
grounding, and the interconnectedness of all living things. Similarly, birds
depict the sky, evoking freedom and the boundless expanse of the heavens.
Through these rich representations, Mayank’s art reflects not only his
deep connection to nature but also his respect and appreciation for his tribal
heritage, infusing each painting with layers of meaning and significance.
Komal BEDI SOHAL
Komal's photography has earned recognition on both national and
international platforms.
Christian JOURNET
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