Anubandh: Hello! My name is Anubandh KATÉ and I am a Paris based engineer. I have a pleasure to have with me today a very prominent and dynamic personality. Her name is Charza SHAHABUDDIN!
Hello Charza, welcome!
Charza: Hello, thank you very much for having me.
Anubandh: My pleasure! On my channel, I try to have personalities who have often written a book. This is not yet the case for you. However, we met recently in Paris and I was quite impressed with the kind of work that you are doing, your background and your education.
To briefly present you to my audience, you are a political scientist, a research associate at the Center for South Asian and Himalayan Studies (CESAH). You have learnt Bharatnatyam and you teach it as well. Moreover, you have learnt the Hindustani classical music. “Charza” is the name of your garment brand. You have worked in different countries like Kenya, Bangladesh, France and many others. Let us begin with your name. As you had mentioned to me earlier, we can pronounce it in two ways, right? It was “Charza” in French and “Chorza” in Bengali. Is that correct?
Charza: Yes, it is “Chorza” from the “Charyapada” in Bengali which comes from the Sanskrit. And “Charza” in French which also already gives us a glimpse of how you can have different personalities through the same name. It also shows a bit of the patch way of what is immigration, migration naming… It is true that Charza became the French transcription of Chorza, although in Bangladesh many people do not know what is “Charyapada”. Those who know, they are already in a kind of academic, literature field. “Charyapada” is the name of the book that has been found in the 12th century in some Nepalese form. It is basically the alphabet that was before the Sanskrit. The first verses of the poems were this “Charyapada”.
Anubandh: Thank you. I think my audience already has a
glimpse of the fact that you also teach history!
It could also be part of the second session that I would love to have with you where you could explain to us the historical backgrounds of Bangladesh, the secularism, the Islamism and other aspects of it. Nevertheless, today it is dedicated to you, to your work and to your journey so far. Let us begin.
You are based in Paris. It is here that you were born and you have parents who have come from Bangladesh. Could you please tell us about your family background, your childhood and where do you come from?
Charza: Yes, of course. Thank you for this question. Both of my parents come from Bangladesh. However, I was born in Paris in 1991. My father is a painter. He is an artist and also a freedom fighter in Bangladesh. He did the 1971 war as a freedom fighter, as a “Mukti Joddha” (freedom fighter). However, he came to do the “Beaux Arts” in Paris. That is why he came around here in 1974. Later, when he went back to Bangladesh during a trip, he married my mother. My mother is a writer and a journalist. They came back and settled in Paris. They were really happy with the intellectual and artistic atmosphere here. Also for a lot of other political reasons. I guess because of the changes in Bangladesh in those times. My sister (three and a half years older) and I, we grew up in Paris with parents who have been all the time talking in Bengali with us at home. So, Bengali and our Bangladeshi, Bengali identity has been very central to our life and education.
Anubandh: You also mentioned that your father was a freedom fighter. Right? Was he working for the Awami League party of Bangladesh?
Charza: Well, he never worked for the party. He is not at all a politician but his role became kind of political. Just for a reminder. In 1947 after the partition of India, and then from 1947 to 1971, Pakistan was divided into East Pakistan which is the present Bangladesh and West Pakistan, which is the present Pakistan. There was this crazy, incongruous idea of having 2000 kilometers between both parts of Pakistan. And there was a huge mistreatment, ill treatment of the East Pakistanis by the central administration of Pakistan. That is why there had been a war for 9 months by the Pakistani army that was backed by the Jamat e Islam militias. The later is an Islamist political (party) in Bangladesh. During these nine months, there have been between 1 to 3 million of people who have been killed. While between 200,000 and 400,000 women have been raped, with all the consequences.
Thus, this war was fought against the Pakistani army and these militias, by the people of Bangladesh. This included the Bengali people as well as the adivasis. The result of this war was the liberation of Bangladesh. During these times, my father was doing his Beaux Arts at the fine arts school. This was his study of arts in Charukola (Dhaka). My father joined the movement as a freedom fighter, as many other young people did at that time. This is where he really became politicized. Today the situation in Bangladesh is very difficult because last summer, the regime of Sheikh HASINA fell. However, at that time, the “Awami League” was the founding, one of the oldest party for Bangladesh. It was founded in 1949 and it was actually the political party that lead to the independence of Bangladesh with Sheikh Mujibur RAHMAN as its leader. My father was very close to his thinking. He has been advised by Sheikh Mujibur RAHMAN (also known as “Bangabandhu”) to go to Paris. However, my father has never done direct politics as a candidate. He has always been in his role of an artistic and an intellectual figure.
Anubandh: What you say is important for people like me who come from India but not necessarily from West Bengal. Let us say for people who come from the central or southern part of India where this history about the war of 1971 is rather badly or insufficiently known. For instance, a few years earlier I went to Tripura (Agartala) and I could visit the Tripura State Museum there. It described in detail those times. There were many things that I learnt as new.
Coming back to you. Could you please tell us a bit about your early education? I mean until your Lycée (High School) where you were in Claude MONET Lycée. How was it to grow in the 90s of Paris? Being someone from Bangladesh? Please tell us.
Charza: I think I can focus on two aspects that are interesting regarding the education. First, the language. We were speaking in Bengali at home. My mother educated us in terms of alphabet writing, learning etc... Thus, my mother tongue is Bengali and I have learnt French somehow because we were in a French structure. Nevertheless, my mother insisted on teaching us English as we used to have a lot of guests, a lot of friends of my parents visiting us. Thus, I catched up English when I was very young. Thereupon, what was most important was the Bengali. I loved it because I was learning it with my sister. She was already 5 when I was perhaps 2. I was all the time with my mother and sister. Around 5 or 6 years old, what was a bit harsh for us was the fact that during the weekend we had to always write a page in Bengali. Therefore, it was extra work. It seems so funny now because at that time it was like compulsory. It was a duty for us and we had to write. Thus, we could practice. Although I now understand why we had to do it, it was a bit more harsh than for the other kids as we had to work more. To me, my mother was a pioneer and a visionary because she always told us, your Bengali identity would be something of a value. Like you need to be practicing, you need to know your identity, your roots etc. Therefore, when I was a child I was already very proud of being also a Bengali. We grew up in the 13th arrondissement of Paris. It is nearby “place d’Italie” and “national”. It is historically the Chinese and the Vietnamese area. It has changed a lot since, however still you have a lot of Chinese and Vietnamese restaurants there. Thus, I grew up very comfortably within this framework, knowing that this area was specific to people with double identities. What is also a bit interesting and has changed during the past 30 years is that there was no Bengali at all in this area at that time. Now it has changed so much.
We were kind of old - new people
but in a very good way. I felt and I was very proud to be a bit different.
I always felt that my difference would be something good for me. That I could exploit it in a very good way. Well, I did not think it this way when I was a child. However, I was comfortable with being a double identity person.
Anubandh: Right. I think this question of identity is quite important. How we consider our identity is and how it is perceived by others. We will visit that a bit later but to stick to the same question of languages and there are two that I have. I know that you also learnt Latin at school, right? Are there other languages that you learnt? And do you also read and write in Bengali? If yes, how often?
Charza: Well, both questions are linked because as I have learnt Bengali when I was a child. Since I am a child I have been very attracted by languages. Both my parents are from the literature, artistic world. Also, Bengali is the sixth or eighth most spoken language in the world now. However, in France, when I was a child it was a very unique language. I was always very attracted by languages and that is why I did Latin until I was 18 years old. I was not good at all in Latin, even though I had a good grade at the baccalaureate. I was not that good but I loved it! We have been reading a lot in our families. Therefore, I also knew that Latin was important from the point of view of etymology, vocabulary, writing, etc. When you do Latin, it is better so as not to make any mistakes. I was attracted by Latin and I always had an attraction also for languages that are supposedly not spoken by a lot of people. Thus, later when I was in Sciences Po, when I did my political science studies, I learnt Hebrew for four years. Well, now I have lost it a lot as I need to practice. Still, I did that. Again, I was not good that much but I loved it. During our SciencePo time, we have to do one year abroad. I did not want to go to the…Well, I am so sorry. I am going to say and perhaps target some people but I really did not want to go to the US. I was like, why would I go to the US when you have all these countries in the world! Specifically, because I also had this thing of not being that nuanced. The US backed up the Pakistani army during the 1971 war. Therefore, I was like I do not want to go there. I wanted to speak English but I wanted to go in somewhere where I knew nothing about the place. I was very attracted by Kenya. Thus, when I was in Kenya I started to learn Swahili.
Anubandh: Great!
Charza: But I do not speak either Hebrew or Swahili, although I have learnt it. I was able at least to connect with the structure, ideas, grammar and just the sonorities of these languages. For now, I speak Bengali, which I read and write. I also teach it a bit at INALCO. It was the most important aspect for my mother. She always said, “you can't say that you speak a language if you cannot read and write it.” So, Bengali, English and French for real. Spanish I have been learning so I can really understand and use it. However, Swahili and Hebrew, these are something we can discuss but I am not sure I would be able to do an academic work with that. In essence, I really enjoyed studying those languages.
Anubandh: You are a polyglot for me and the least we can say is that you have a strong fascination for languages.
Charza: Yes.
Anubandh: That is confirmed. Moving on, about the lycée (high school) Claude MONET. And Claude MONET, at least few people in India know this renaissance artist. It is in this school that you learnt Latin. You learnt theatre and as well as philosophy. You did your baccalaureate there. And during the baccalaureate year, you have philosophy as a compulsory subject, is that Right?
Charza: Yes.
Anubandh: This is something quite new for the Indian audience. So, could you tell us about this experience at the lycée Claude MONET?
Charza: Yes, I will start with the philosophy thing. Well, now the education system in France has changed a lot in terms of options. Not everyone has the same thing. However, it is true that for us, philosophy was introduced in the high school. I have to say here that the philosophy really depends on the teacher you have. As it is such a different way of understanding things. I guess that we should be learning it very early, way before the high school. I will just focus on what has been really crucial for me. Especially the theater option because my high school, the lycée Claude MONET… and here I would give a huge applause to my high school because it was a great one. As it was one of the only ones with many options. They had like the music option, the theatre option, which means that you have teachers for these. A lot of tools. Not necessarily a lot of money but at least some focus of the teachers to teach theatre, etc. Incidentally, it is not the case for the other high schools. As it costs money. Not everyone wants to invest in this kind of thing. Also, Claude MONET was a high school where we all enjoyed a lot. My best friends that I still have, everyone came from a lot of different origins. Thanks to the theater option, we played Bertolt BRECHT. He is a German theatre writer. We did this play and it is also thanks to this theatre option that I started to become very aware of what was theatre. Even though I came from this background of arts, vernissage, etc., going to the theatre was an education. It is a different culture. Thanks to this option I started to I feel very familiar with theatre. I am telling you all of this because this is why I guess I have been attracted to theater festivals. We have a theatre festival that we organize. Now that you are asking me, it is easy for me to think about this high school experience and to understand why we have been focusing and giving so much of our time for theater, for the last past seven years, with the Toujours festival.
Anubandh: Thanks you. If I understood correctly, you have done two bachelor degrees. One at Sciences Po during 2009 to 2013 and another at the Panthéon Sorbonne University. And your topics at SciencePo were … You were also a President there of the traveling committee….? You will correct me. It was for the United Nations and there is the Party Socialist, the section Jean ZAY where you were also an active member. In Sorbonne, you learnt history, arts, archaeology and cinema. Yes, so please tell us for what I have missed. How was this experience and about the decision to do two bachelor degrees in parallel?
Charza: My main focus and my main studies were political science at SciencePo. However, during my first year of bachelor, there were a lot of administrative stuffs going on. It was also my first year in a very good school. Therefore, I failed some classes and I was very frustrated at that. Thus, I decided not to lose my time. I was also very interested and attracted by history of art. Well, political science with all the classes is already a lot. It is easier to say it this way but thanks to this kind of small failure, I started to learn history of arts at Sorbonne. This course lasted for four years. It was all time management. I could go to some classes, I could do some exams after, etc. Thus, I did it in a much more cool way than SciencePo. I remember I could just enjoy the classes such as history, archaeology of Greece, art, etc. It was much more in a chill way than the political science. This is how it started. It actually came from a kind of a small academic failure. That is how I did the two Bachelors. At the end of the day they were something very complementary.
The bachelor of Political Science is very classic. You have political science, you have history, you have economics, macroeconomics and microeconomics. For that matter, I was really bad in microeconomics. This is nice. At least you get to learn whether you are good or not in something. In history of art, we had to focus on one type of art. I focused on cinema and I loved it, as with it you learn so many things.
Further, I have been always very involved with associations. The first one I joined when I was at SciencePo. It was SciencePo for the United Nations (UN). You have many universities involved. You have that in India as well. It is the model of the UN. You have this organization that does the model of the UN, quite everywhere in the world. I was the Vice President and I took care of the traveling committee. We went to Russia, to Morocco, etc. What is really cool is like you meet great people, great students from all over the world. And everyone is very interested in international relations and people are open to all the nationalities. It has been now 15-17 years that I started political science. That time I had hoped for diplomacy to be a good tool. I was really interested by the UN and something that is very important for the way I structured my thinking. I have been always very interested by ideas and political ideas from the left. Towards cinema also. I am thinking about one movie of GODARD that is called “La Chinoise”. In high school I was already doing demonstrations and all. I was called to join the Party Socialist (PS) at that time. Again, this is all very different now because the left and the left structure in France has changed a lot. But at that time it was normal for a student like me to be interested in the Party Socialist. Although, a lot of people were not that involved politically. I must say, I am so much more leftist than the Party Socialist today.
Anubandh: You mentioned about GODARD. He is quite known in India for his films like, “Pierrot le Fou”, “Weekend” and a lot of other films. Now, let us talk a bit about your doctorate that you did at Sciences Po. It was at the Paris School of International Affairs. The topic that you chose there was international security aspects. You also dealt about African issues. Could you tell us about your masters experience at Science Po?
Charza: Yes, of course. I would like to say I know science Po as a university that offers a variety of options. Personally, I was so happy because I was always able to have the good courses, also with the good teachers, etc. After my third year abroad in Kenya, I did an internship. I wanted to work while most other people were doing exchanges. I did an internship at the French Embassy in Nairobi. There, I had the chance to work as the audiovisual assistant for nine or eight East African countries. Based in Kenya I was able to work on or to discover other countries such as Ethiopia, Uganda, Tanzania and Rwanda. This started to open my scope and my focus on other political issues and areas. That is why I followed and that is why I chose the African continent.
At that time, I was very interested by all the aspects that are related to international security. I remember I took classes where I had actually to do a small memoir. It is like a small paper on the Rafale. This is where we understand as well what are our values. Where really is the money? When I say where the money is, it is like the money is in international security! You see that it is linked to arms sellings or structures. You understand that if you do advocacy you would be doing that for companies which sell weapons. This is where you try to understand, what is my vision of the world? Is actually selling weapons a way of maintaining peace? Sorry to put it this way but I thought that these questions were quite sexy. Talking and working about Rafale etc. Gradually, I have also changed my mind. And I was like, I do not really believe in that. I do not really believe that if you build a country where the whole economy is built on selling weapons like Rafale, you could actually be engaged in the peace process and peace studies, etc. Therefore, thanks to that I also started to know what I wanted. Well, it is very easy to talk about that afterwards. Because now you try to rather align the stars of your life this way. I am not sure it was that clear for me at that time but my master was great in terms of teachers, learning other areas, fields and people.
Anubandh: Talking about wars and weapons that you mentioned, I recently read a comment by Arundhati ROY, the famous Indian writer. She said, earlier we were manufacturing or producing weapons for wars. Now, it is the other way round. In order to sell weapons, we need wars!
Charza: Exactly! Thank you so much. Because she puts it much better than me. This is exactly what I was talking about, yes. I mean of course if you have thousands of weapons then you need to sell them. Even for us it is logical. We are seeing that everywhere. For instance, for the past 15 years, all the wars are happening for years… for years and there is a reason behind that of course.
Anubandh: There is another saying that comes to my mind. I do not know who it was but he said “you can bomb the world into pieces but you cannot bomb the world into peace”.
Well, going ahead. After the international relations for your doctorate, you chose a different topic at the EHESS which is École des Hautes Études En Sciences Sociales (EHESS). It is the Center for Indian and South Asian Studies. Here you studied the state, religion and society of Bangladesh, between secularism and Islamism. I was surprised to learn that your director of thesis was Michel BOIVIN. He has written quite a lot of books. For instance, his book “Historical dictionary of the Sufi culture of Sindh in Pakistan”. I recently had the pleasure to interview Laurent GAYER of Science Po and he mentioned about Michel BOIVIN. So, could you please tell us about this experience of your Doctorate?
Charza: Thank you very much for this question. Thanks to this I will be able to show you how my identity shaped my PhD thesis and what I did. During my school years, I was really sure that my Bangladeshi and Bengali identity was so much here. I really convinced myself that I needed to work on something else if I did research. Perhaps it sounds so stupid today when I say that but at that time, I was sure that I needed to learn another language. Thus, Swahili happened. There was this desire to work on another research topic. I was convinced as if there was no need for me to work on Bangladesh. I really had this idea. Thus, I was more focusing on the process of radicalization, perhaps in Kenya, etc. However, a lot of things happened after I graduated in 2015. I started a new job with a crazy woman. Like a really bad person. And thanks to this experience, six months afterwards, I kind of had a burnout. When I graduated, I always knew I wanted to do research but I had a job opportunity. I was young then, I think I was 23. Thus, I said yes to this job. The fact that I was with this crazy woman was one of the reasons behind this first burnout.
And I also remember that on July 1st 2016, there was the first attack in the Holey Artisan Bakery in Dhaka. It was in the diplomatic area and was orchestrated by the organization of the Islamic State against foreigners and Bangladeshis. Therefore, these two things made me come back to this feeling and idea that I wanted to do research. I had it in my mind. Each time you feel, you think you have a fall, actually the rest is coming. This is where this idea to do research originated. I knew I wanted to do research at EHESS, École des Hautes Études En Sciences Sociales. This is historically the school where you had the anthropologist Claude LÉVI-STRAUSS. All these big names of anthropology. Thus, I did political science at SciencePo which was a great school for me and I loved it. I really wanted to have a more anthropological, sociological approach and do École des Hautes Études En Sciences Sociales. I knew it has a really good reputation. Therefore, I had these two aims: Research on Bangladesh and studying at EHESS. I would say the attack of July 1st precipitated my thinking. I remember, I actually went to talk to Christophe JAFFRELOT, because I knew him from SciencePO. I had a great class with him. I remember that I was thinking about doing something regarding what was happening in the borders between West Bengal (India) and Bangladesh, perhaps on radicalization. Because it was also a moment where all of this was happening. I had international security, etc on my mind. I think, at that time, Bangladesh was not that interesting for the world in France.
It is really thanks to someone I would like to say thank you here. It is Jean-Luc RACINE who is a professor Émérite now. He used to be a teacher at EHESS. I went to him while he was already retiring, so he could not take me as a student. Actually I went to him, I explained him my profile, what I did etc. and he was the one to say, “we need someone on Bangladesh!”. Because in France, there was no one on Bangladesh or actually someone who defended a PhD or at this level of academic studies. I needed someone, not to coach me but to become my PhD supervisor. Thus, thanks to him I met Michel (BOIVIN). I am really happy, thankful to Michel because he accepted. He is specialized on Sindh and is a historian and an islamologist. We do not have the same approach but the fact that he is a historian and an islamologist helped me a lot. Each time he had a peculiar approach of interrogating the term. Something that I learnt from him. For instance, he was the first one to say “it is very interesting for Bangladesh, which is a 91% Muslim majority country to actually keep the word the “Dhormo Nirpeksh”, to say secularism. This word is very Sanskrit. While for most other Muslim countries, not all of them, the word is Latin based. Thus, you have the Arabic terminology. This kind of thinking and opening came from Michel. This is how I entered EHESS.
Anubandh: Indeed, the links between cultural, linguistic, religious identities are very strong and they have defined this region of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Now to summarize a bit your experiences as they are so many. It is really a challenge for me to do so. Let us divide them into two parts, one which is related to your education, your research and the others which are, let us say arts or theater and cinema, which are also important.
I saw that you have worked also in Bangladesh for the Grameen Bank for 2 months. Although it is a small experience I would like to highlight it because it is quite varied. In a way, it really offers us an idea about the panoply and the scope of your experiences, as well as about your outgoing nature. You were also a parliament assistant at the State Ministry for women and Children Affairs in Bangladesh for a month. Then of course, we talked about Kenya where you worked for the French Foreign Affairs and International Development. You were also a research assistant at the “Institut Montaigne” which is quite famous here for their research and analysis. For a few months, you worked as well as an interpreter at the “National Refugee Rights tribunal”. During eight years, you were a project manager at “Teach for France”. You were a history teacher at the “Kholeuse”, teaching both history and geography. Lastly, you taught as a course director at “Emouna”, Sciences Po Paris. You are also a temporary teacher at Sciences Po, Le Havre since February 2024. Lastly, you were as well an “enseignante vacataire” at Le Havre. Perhaps, you could tell us the difference between the two.
Charza: Well, we used to go kind of every year or each summer to Bangladesh. Since I am a child I was interested by politics and life. I have been always doing a lot of internships. There were very small internships like the one with Grammen Bank. I do not think it even spanned two months. However, it was with my French friends. I remember, I went with three of my friends from here. It was actually the first experience where we were in villages, without my parents, without family, with just us.
One thing you did not mention but it is really fine. However, it is where I have learned a lot. It was the first internship we did. It was with a great NGO that is called “APSIS Survivors Foundation”. It is a foundation and that helps women who have been attacked by acid for gender issues, for patriarchal reasons, by misogynist people. Usually, when a woman does not want to marry a guy, the family would come, take revenge and put acid anyway. I was not familiar with all of this. I started to understand the scares and the fears. The evils of the Bangladeshi society. I was a happy to confront them.
Then, we had Grameen Bank. These were the experiments with Shirin AKHTER. She later became the speaker of the (Bangladeshi) Parliament, the Ministry of Women and Children Affairs. That was really thanks to my parents and their connection to Awami League at that time. I was really happy to at least understand a bit of how the Parliament worked. These were great experiences to be a bit settled. I really needed to create my own legitimacy in Bangladesh. I mean, so many people love to say, even in Bangladesh, “oh.. where did you go? Where did you buy this textile? I do not know this place in Dhaka”. And me, I wanted to know the places in Bangladesh. I wanted to own them. To be like, I went there and I went there. Thus, I had this idea from the beginning. Although, my parents were a bit scared, as some parents can be because you are far from the country. Therefore, in terms of security, you expect the worst from the country. My only way as well to discover Bangladesh by myself was to do this internship.
The third organization which is the one that helped me the most was “Nigera Kori”, which means we do it ourselves. Afterwards, to do my fieldwork, I worked with this one. It is a grassroots local organization that creates groups between women and men. They help the “bhoomihin”, the landless people to organize through cultural, educative and informative sessions to defend themselves. This was for the experiences in Bangladesh. One of the things that was motivating me was that I needed to legitimize and emancipate myself, through my own experiences.
It has been more than 10 years now that Sciences Po has started to build campuses all over France. This is to accommodate the large number of students that they have. It is not only in Paris but the campuses are built according to the area of specialties. The Asian speciality area is in Le Havre.
I would tell you here the temporary teacher thing. It is just the English word which is not the exact word. It is to say “vacataire”. Basically in France, you have a system where either you are a professor where you really have to pass a lot of exams, many years of work, etc. Perhaps I will apply to that later. This is where you are called professor. Moreover, if you are “just a teacher”, if you do not have this status, it is “enseignant vacataire”. This is something that is very criticized today by the teachers, by our people. Because what the universities are doing is like they are taking much more “vacataires” teachers who they pay less, although with good qualifications. We are all highly qualified and yet they pay us less. Thus, they do not use all these professors. This way, you have less vacant posts. It is not the best situation though.
I have been teaching at Sciences Po, first for the class that was called “Espace Mondial”. It is a very well known class there. We have the main lecture and then I was giving the small seminars. This is where I started to teach the class in French and then the same in English. It was the first year. I did a lot of things in English but it is not the same thing to teach in English, right? It was my first time in 2018 where I had these three classes. It was a great experience. Thanks to this, you feel that you can do and teach so much more. I conceptualized and proposed the class that they accepted. It was titled, “State, Religion, Society and violence in India, Bangladesh and Pakistan”. It was a small seminary.
Anubandh: Indeed and your teaching passion is not just limited to serious issues and topics of your research work. You also taught history of Bengal and Bengali poetry at INALCO. You mentioned about the theatre festival, the Toujours Festival that you organize. You learnt classical Hindustani. You have learnt Bharatnatyam that you teach as well. Could you now briefly talk us about these nonacademic experiences and passions that you have?
Charza: Of course. Thank you. Just to calrify regarding the history of Bengal. It is actually very academic because it is at INALCO, Institut National des Langues Orientales. I was given the chance to teach one class that is Histoire du Bengal (history of Bengal). I am not a historian but still I can teach on this. The other one, it is about readings in Bengali. I enjoyed it so much as this is where you understand that what you have been learning with your mother. I am not at all a grammar or linguistic teacher. However, I had students that were reading texts that we would choose collectively. I was very happy to do that.
For the more artistic things, there are two experiences. The first one I would talk about is the Bharatanatyam. I have been doing Bharatanatyam since I am a child and I loved it. I always loved dancing. Science Po is a school where you have so many associations, organizations. Sometimes these are even more important than the classes. I actually had one student who I really appreciated. He told me that he was doing Bharatnatyam. This is when I said to myself, “they are so open minded!”. There is something that is called in the second year as “Atelier Artistic”, an artistic Workshop. It can be music, dance, art or any other things. I have been teaching for six years at the Le Havre. So I asked them if I could do something with Bharatnatyam.
Now the last thing which is a bit different. It is about the Toujours festival. These are my two best friends who founded this festival. One of them is a comedian and a “metteur en scène”. They were the ones who got me attracted to this festival. This festival happens in a very beautiful place, in the castle called “Château de Menthon-Saint-Bernard”. That time, they needed the help of their friends as volunteers. I went to volunteer and I spent one day. I had to go the next day and finally I spent the whole week. I then entered the organization. This is something that has accompanied and structured our political battles as well. Because for instance, in France for the last few years they have cut so much budget on this (culture), so doing this is also for us a form of resistance.
Anubandh: Indeed. Austerity in budgets is really a challenge of our times. Now, the last feather in the great variety of your experiences is the fact that you also founded the “Charza” garment brand. With your permission, I quickly wish to show some of the pictures that I found on the internet. Could you tell us few words about this experience?
Charza: Yes, “Charza”, the brand has my name. In India, Bangladesh we have our tailors, right? This is something we do not really have in France. Or when it is available, it is very expensive. I used to go with my aunt all the time to buy the textile in Gausia Market (Dhaka) and give the designs to the tailors. When my sister and I were in high school, we would always come back after the summer with a lot of colourful clothing. Thus, many of my girlfriends would say, “I love your dress!”. Thus, since high school I always had this idea somewhere in my mind. I would say, “one day, one day I will do a small collection”. Therefore, later this came back. I said to myself, perhaps this is the moment where I can actually go back to Bangladesh and do that. Therefore, in December 2016 I went back with my father to Bangladesh. I decided I would do 50 small pieces. This is how it started and then it became something that is called a “slow fashion”. It is like between 200 pieces. I started to do small a showroom in Paris, like once or twice a year with this collection.
Anubandh: Thank you for adding colours and vivacity to the Parisian landscape!
I have now perhaps a difficult question for you. I hope you do not mind it. When one looks at your career and journey, we see some very prominent names of institutes; research institutes and educational institutes like Science Po, EHESS, Sorbonne, Institut Montaigne. Then the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ministry in Bangladesh as well. Even to the French audience, these are really big names. Which are a proof of your talent, of your passion and of your hard work. However, these are also names that are looked as a sign of some privilege. Not everyone can go there and aspire. How would you react to this assessment?
Charza: Well, the privilege, I cannot deny that I had the privilege to have parents who come from a background where to them education, culture, languages are crucial. This is something I cannot deny. It is a sort of 100% privilege. However, you need to keep on carrying this privilege. My parents did the effort to come here as they are immigrants. They left everything in Bangladesh. They came, they built their life here. It is true that the generation of my sister and I, we are the privileged ones. However, as I was telling you, when I was a child we worked all the time. I was working extra as well. Of course, privilege in terms of structures, in terms of what it means to the world. However, then it depends how you use your privileges and for whom you are working. This privilege helped me try to be the most just and equal towards the rest. With my writings I try not being ideologically, stupidly loyal to anything.
Anubandh: Yes. Indeed, one thing is very clear that when one looks at your career and your journey so far, you have nurtured your interests. You have helped yourself in pursuing those passions. That is the reason perhaps why we see that your career has blossomed so beautifully.
Very last point now and then we will have to wrap up. It is about the identity issue that you raised in the beginning. There is a book by Amartya SEN, the famous Indian Noble Prize winner for economy. In his book, “Identity and violence”, he says that sometimes you have very little control over how your identity is perceived by others. He claims that identity is not something you discover, it is something you construct. How would you react to this?
Charza: Thank you so much for quoting him. I do not know this book, but I would say that Amartya SEN to me, the way I feel the Bengali identity, literature, culture, I am 100% aligned on this. With Satyajit RAY, Amartya SEN. I mean, when I say aligned, it is like this way of thinking, the identity, the mix between arts, culture, etc. Actually, even when you do not have a mixed culture, you have these identity clashes all the time between gender, class, idea, politics, mother, dad, my brother, my education, BJP, not BJP… you know, what I mean? You already have those identity clashes within yourself. The more you grow, the more you understand what exactly your identity is. Your identity is in constant evolution. It is not something fixated. This is what makes life so much cooler and greater. If it were a fixed thing, we would never be interacting and learning from the others, right? Yes, it is something moving and it is something evolving. It is something that makes life much more great and good to live, I would say.
Anubandh: Thank you Charza! This was a fascinating conversation. I hope the audience now has a fair idea about what you have achieved, what you are constructing. We shall carry on this discussion in the next session.
Charza: Thank you so much!
Charza Shahabuddin
Charza Shahabuddin is a doctorate from the Centre d’Etudes
Sud-Asiatiques et Himalayennes, EHESS in Paris. She also teaches at Sciences Po
and INALCO, both in Paris. Her research focuses on the production of Islamic
norms in Bangladesh. She is well versed in several languages and takes a keen
interest in arts. Charza has learnt Indian classical music and she teaches the
Indian classical dance form, the Bharatnatyama. She also own a garment brand
that is named “Charza”.
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